Episode 49: Take Care of Yourself With Dr. Stephen Quaye

Introduction (Dr. Lacy): 

Hey friend, the time has come to finish your dissertation, graduate and become doctor. Welcome to office hours or Dr. Lacy where we talk about how to finally master this time management thing so you can stay on top of it without losing your mind. Every Wednesday you can find a new episode wherever you listen to podcasts, make sure you hit the subscribe button to make sure you never miss an episode. I'm Dr. Marvette Lacy, your dissertation writing strategist here to be with you along every step of the way. I would like to thank you for coming to today's office hours. Let's get started on today's episode. Before we get started, I have a question to ask you and I sincerely don't want to ask you this question because I know you're probably tired of people asking you this question and yeah, I know I need to ask you because I sincerely want to help you, so here it goes. How is your dissertation going? I know, I know. Hear me out. A lot of clients come to me and they say, I just don't know where to start. Can you relate listener? I mean, of course you know you have to complete your proposal and maybe you even decided to start with chapter two. But what's next? How do you start? How long should you dedicate to writing? How do you know which things are most important to focus on? How do you know what to do so that you don't waste time reading and writing the wrong things? I hear you and that is exactly why I created Start Your Dissertation.

Start your dissertation, takes you through the step by step process that I use with my current clients every week to get the structure, consistency and discipline needed in their writing process. Imagine having doable writing goals. I'm talking about goals. When you read them you're like, is this real a course? I can do that with no problem. And so as a result, you're leaping out of your bed every day to write. Can you imagine such a thing? Excited to write. My clients tell me they're excited all the time. But imagine that you, yes, you who is listening can be disciplined enough to show up consistently and not only showing up cause I know you because that was me showing up to the Panera and to Starbucks. Just more excited about the coffee and the lemon loaf, but like imagine not only showing up to write, but that you actually sit down, turn off all distractions and you, write, but like best of all, imagine having so much confidence in your writing that you happily press send to your dissertation chair with your latest draft. Friend, that is what I'm offering you in this course. I am offering you a proven system that's going to take this huge goal of finishing this dissertation and break it down into very bite size pieces that like actually work for your life.

But don't just take my word for it. Listen to Pascale who has just recently completed this course and Pascale says you need to do this. It will get your whole life together. Since taking this course, she says, I've gained momentum towards completing my literature review revisions. I've also been really intentional about writing every day since the workshop or how about Micah, Micah says, In my daily writing is consistent, which wasn't true a few weeks ago like y'all, she was even able to submit her proposal to her committee in just a few short weeks. So friend, what are you waiting for? Are you ready to finally start this dissertation? If you are, I want you to go over to startyourdissertation.com and sign up for the waitlist. You will be among the first notified when doors are officially open later on this month. Now for real, let's get back to the show.

Meet Our Guest (Dr. Lacy): 

Hello everyone. Thank you for tuning in to this week's episode. I am so excited for you all to listen and so I'm not going to talk a lot. I just wanted to come in and do a formal introduction of a person who absolutely needs no introduction, so I'm going to let them introduce themselves, but I want to just say that I'm grateful for them for taking out the time to be on this podcast episode today. You're going to get a lot, a lot, lot of stuff from this. Um, we talk so much about what is self care, what does that look like? Um, outside of, you know, doing the things that Pinterest or the social media world, would have you, believing is self care. We talk about how to have boundaries in your um, writing process and we also just talk about in general, how can you on an everyday basis show up and make the best decision for you, your success, your health, um, which I feel like it's missing in the scholar conversation or academia in general.

And so, um, I just, there's just so much here. Um, I do want to make a few notes though to say that, um, there are a few moments where the audio goes in and out towards the beginning of the episode. Just know that will subside after a while and it shouldn't be too much of a, it shouldn't interfere too much with the episode. But I did want to make a note that you will hear that as well as I was recording this episode, while I was visiting family. And so you will, you will hear my nieces in the background as some of the points. I did my best to remove it or lower the volume as much as possible, but, um, you know, real life and if you have been around in this podcast for any length of time, you know that Hey, it doesn't take away from the content. We have had people getting their hair done. We've had people doing Oh, all sorts of things. So I'm just wanting to make a note of that. But without further ado, let's get on to this week's episode. Well, the famous question of who are you and what do you do?

Guest: Um, so hi everyone. So I'm Steven Quaye. Um, and I'm currently an associate professor in the higher education and student affairs program at the Ohio State University. Um, this is my first semester in the program. Prior to that I was, I spent seven years as a faculty member, um, in the student affairs and higher education program at Miami University. So just down the road, South Oxford, Ohio. Um, and then before that I was an assistant professor in the, um, higher education program at the university of Maryland college park. Um, so yeah, so I mean, as a faculty member at OSU, I teach classes, I do research, advise students, chair dissertations, do a lot of service. Um, I think a whole conglomeration of a number of things. Um, and then my other sort of professional role is I'm also the associate editor of the Journal of Diversity in Higher Education. Um, so in that role I am responsible for, um, giving authors feedback on manuscripts, soliciting reviewers to review manuscripts, making decisions about, um, revise and resubmit or what gets published in the journal, um, and stuff like that. So those are my two full time roles.

Share Your PhD Journey (Dr. Lacy): 

Pretty much. I'm awesome. And I'm a superstar. Yes. Yes. That's exactly how you could have introduced yourself. You're welcome, that you get to listen to me for the next 30 minutes or so. Um, but seriously, um, so thinking of that, did you, I guess one, two part question, one when did you always know that you would, um, pursue a terminal degree? Um, and the second part of that is what made you decide, "yep, I'm going to do this."

Guest: Yeah. Um, so no, I didn't, I didn't always know that I'll pursue a terminal degree. Um, so I guess I can talk a little bit about how I got there. So basically as an undergraduate student, I did my undergraduate degree at James Madison university in Harrisonburg, Virginia. Um, I was a psychology major, um, but I was also an RA for two years there as an undergraduate student. And then JMU was, I think is rare in the sense that they had a few select halls on campus, where seniors could be hall directors. And so I was also a hall director in my senior year. Um, and so basically I spent three years as an undergraduate student in residence life. And, um, and during that time, I, you know, I had interacted with a lot of folks in the residence life office and multicultural affairs for programming that we were doing.

Um, so I had basically spent my three years of my time at JMU ,um, engaging with all of these student affairs professionals, but like most undergraduate students, I didn't know what student affairs was. I didn't know that it was an actual career. And so I actually was intending to apply to psychology PhD programs mostly because there's, you can't really do much with a bachelor's degree in psychology. Um, and so along the way, this was like October, I had applied to a couple of psychology PhD programs. I didn't really have a strong interest in that, but I've just felt like that's what you needed to do in order to be able to work. Um, and so along the way, I was, I was in the residence life office one day and I was talking with some of the folks there and they ask me what I'm doing when I graduate.

And I said, I don't really, I'm not really sure, but I think I want to, I think I'm just gonna apply for these PhD programs in psychology because I want to know what else to do. And at that point, somebody asked me if I've thought about a career in student affairs. And so, you know, I asked them what, what, like what is that? And so they, they said, well, all this time, these three years, like what do you think you've been doing when you're like, you're seeing us in the office and you're talking with us. And you know, I didn't put two and two together. And so at that point I knew that that's what I wanted to do, but I also didn't know like for sure that's what I wanted. And so I applied to a couple of programs in student affairs Master's programs, um, because I knew I was passionate about the work I was doing as an RA and a hall director.

Um, and so then that's what I did. And then I ended up at Miami University, which is also where I was the faculty member, um, for my Master's. And, and that time, um, I'm one of my faculty, my team members, Peter Magolda, I became really close with him. Peter has since passed away in January of this year. Um, and he's really, I think the person that like gave me confidence that I could pursue a PhD. Um, I had this really miserable experience as in my seventh grade English teacher who basically told me I couldn't write. And so I really like had a, I really was afraid of writing for the longest time and Peter actually like gave me the confidence to know that had something to contribute and gave me really good feedback on my papers. And so, um, as a Master's student, I just knew that I loved reading and learning.

Guest: Um, Miami's also has the first place where I really started to reflect on my Black racial identity. Um, I didn't have a teacher who wasn't white till my junior year of college, um, but I didn't really reflect on my, on my blackness growing up in predominant white spaces until I took a student development theory class and read literature from Black racial identity development theory. Um, and so I really like, I really was interested in, in reading everything I could from Black authors. Like I always just very, I want to consume all that I could, cause I felt like I missed out on so much growing up. Um, and so I think it was at that time when I just felt like right, that was different from my peers. There's like my peers, who would always complain and work on their papers last minute as a Master's student and like I was the nerd who was like reading extra things and like was wanting to talk with my faculty about them. Um, and so I think that's what, that's what made me think about getting a PhD just because I felt like I, I don't know, I just felt like I was wired differently. Like I had felt like those two years as a Master's student was like, went by so quickly and I, and I was worried that if I started working that I would miss that I would miss those opportunities to continue learning about myself and reading and engaging in dialogue with my peers. Um, and so really like for me, the sole purpose of the, of me pursuing PhD was because I felt like I wasn't, I wasn't done learning yet and I felt like I had just started to learn because K through 12 and college I felt like I was the, the phrase I use is that I felt like I was doing school. Whereas as a, as a Master's student, I felt like I was actually like learning.

So to me the difference between like doing school and learning, like doing school means, you're just ,you're just going through the motions or completing papers, you're memorizing information, you're regurgitating it back. But learning meant I was actually like applying it and reflecting on who I was. Um, and making sense of it and being critical of what I read. Um, and so for me, I wanted to continue that path because I felt like I had just started as, as a Master's student. I had, I have only scratched the surface. Um, and so for me, a PhD would give me an opportunity to at least have four more years of like digging more deeply into some of the things that I was reading about as a Master's student.

Deciding to Continue On (Dr. Lacy): 

Oh, that's awesome. Like to completely like connect with that. Um, cause to a certain extent, I feel like in my Master's program it was still that you would memorize this, like critical thought was not, um, encouraged for a number of reasons. Um, but I did have one particular faculty member who did encourage that and I was able to take, um, as a Master's student you were able to take at least one PhD level course. And I remember that I had took it with that same faculty member and I just was like, this is, this is it, this is, I need to be here. Um, but everyone discouraged me from going straight into the PhD. So I'm curious, how was that reaction from people who are close to you, mentors, peers, et cetera, when you're like, I'm going to, I'm going to continue?

Guest: Yeah. I mean, similar similarly, like a lot of people discouraged me as well. Like, um, I mean it was the whole tale of like you're going to have, you're going to have too much education, but, um, but not enough experience to get a job in student affairs. And so, um, like Peter really was the only one who like really pushed me and encouraged me. And even both Peter Magolda and Marcia Baxter Magolda, my other faculty who wrote letters of recommendation for me, they both wrote glowing letters, but both of them also said, like they had talked with me and they had, you know, told me the, some of the challenges of going straight through, but, but given that they still felt like I was super, a super strong candidate. And so for me at least I appreciated that Peter like told me some of the challenges but didn't like wasn't negativity about it and some of the ways that other people were.

Um, and so I really appreciated that. And I mean, honestly be like, my attitude was like, I mean really like to put bluntly, I was like, well, screw them. Like, basically like, I need to live my life and this is what feels right for me. And so if it means that I have to take an entry level position, um, with a PhD, like, so be it because I felt ready at the time and I was motivated. And so to me, like that was why I wanted to do it. Um, and I, and I was solely focused on learning. So for me it wasn't about like the job after, it was more so about personally I needed to do this because I felt like I needed to be immersed in an educational setting where I could continue my learning. Um, and I would figure out like the details of what to do with a PhD later. Um, and so I think that was kind of my attitude and I knew that I had to like do this for me and I felt motivated. Um, and so really like I just, I'm like, I, I'm the one who lives my, who has to live my life. Right? So, um, so I appreciate some of the commentary from folks, but ultimately like they're not in my body. So, so I think that that's, that's how I made sense of all of that.

Expectations VS Reality (Dr. Lacy):

Well, we can end the podcast right here. I feel like that was a mic drop. Um, so when you think about like you get into the program, what were like some of your initial reactions to being in a program with, did it live up to the hype?

Guest: Yeah, so in some ways, yes, and in other ways no. So I don't know if most a lot of people know this, but I actually started my PhD at the University of Southern California, USC. Um, and I went there, um, so I'm trying to think of how much to say, but, so I went there basically to, um, because I was really enamored by Bill Tierney's work and, um, and that's where he was. And so I knew that part of the PhD program is finding faculty who, um, whose work you admire and that you feel like you can work with. Um, and I had the most miserable experience at USC. My first, I was there for a year and a half. Um, mostly because Bill, I mean, he was an ass, like, he was not like anything I expected. Um, he was not kind. He was, he was just, was, I mean he just was not really a good person.

And so I, my advisor Adrian Ahzahra was, was really significant and powerful, but I felt like I had a really terrible experience with Bill. And so therefore like, um, I was just miserable and I was trying to figure out what to do. Umm. Classes lived up to what I was anticipating. Um, but I, yeah, I was also, I think really intimidated as a first year PhD student. Um, I was surrounded by other people who were really bright as well, and I think I was really thrown off by that and intimidated by it in some ways. So, I mean, a lot of my imposter syndrome stuff was like really prominent during that time. Um, and so, um, that's, so at USC is where I met Sean Harper, who at the time was the executive director of the EDD program there. 

Um, and like meeting Sean, like ultimately like changed my life and really profound ways and um, at the time, so Shawn left to go to Penn state and he created an opportunity for me to come with him. Um, and so for me it was that connection that helped me transfer to a program where I felt was a better fit for me because I had, I was at that point, I was surrounded by other faculty and who I, I just thought were really powerful and supportive. Um, I also came in midway through the year. I came in in January, spring semester, so I was kind of in between cohorts, but the like second year student group like really took me in and like really like welcomed me and supported me and I have nothing but good things to say about about them, which made my transition really powerful and seamless and enabled me, I think to feel like I fit in with a group of people.

Umm. And so I think my classes and that and at Penn state lived up to what I was hoping for. And basically what I appreciated was just being surrounded by other doc students who I could talk with about my ideas about my research, about what I was learning. I mean, that's what I always envisioned doc life was about. And I'm happy that I got it at Penn state because it was missing for me as a, at USC. And so I also know that many students struggle with that. And not everyone has the opportunity to, um, to transfer. Um, but I mean, us faculty, we are often, we're not very kind people often. And so I think we make it hard for students and it's just, it's, it's unacceptable. And there was no point in doing that. And so I think for me, I think just being able to transfer to Penn state like gave me a renewed sense of hope and passion.

And I felt like I, I flourished there in a way that I probably wouldn't have at USC. I think had I stayed at USC, like I'm, I'm the kind of person that when I, when I commit to something, I do it. And so I would have finished, like, there was no doubt in my mind about that. Um, but I also, I, I think far too often doc students, we have the mentality that we, that we just have to survive or finish. And I'm, my, my, my question is always like, when we do things like at what cost, and so yes, we can finish, but at what costs to our mental, emotional, physical, wellbeing and health. And oftentimes it's that it's at a very large cost, um, to those pieces. And I don't feel like we need to, we need to subscribe to that mentality. Um, so I think that that to me was like why I felt like I want, I needed to leave because yes, I could have finished, but I wasn't willing to do it in a way that was going to be unhealthy for me.

Setting Boundaries (Dr. Lacy): 

Absolutely. This is, I'm going off, now I'm going off script because I'm like, this is too good not to follow up on. Um, a lot of my clients, we've been having conversations about this very thing of not necessarily transferring programs but being involved in other commitments. Um, and I asked them a lot of like, you're, you're continuing to be involved in this and to do this and pull away from what you time and effort and energy you could be given to yourself or to your dissertation or to just other things, families, loved ones, but you're, you're maybe your involved like on a community board or maybe it's like some committee or some other thing and I say, no, what could your life look like if you just left, if you'd made a decision that you're no longer going to do this? 

And what they consistently come back with is like, I don't want to be, I'm the only person of color on the committee, the board or whatever and I don't want them to see me as the lazy Black girl that quit, um, or I don't want to be the one that, you know, like I don't want to be a quitter. I don't want to be perceived as lazy. And I keep trying to figure out how to have that conversation with them to say like, it's, you're not, it's not that you're not showing up and not putting in work, you're making a decision for you. Um, but yeah, like how you know, you do like such a great job of like explaining that, but well, I guess what could you offer people who are trying to make a decision similar, like that will be best for them, but they do have these feelings of like, you know, my parents tell me I can't quit. You can't give up these good opportunities. Um, and I will say that way with these good white folks, you can't do that. And, so, any words of encouragement for people?

Guest: So I mean, I think part of it is, um, ah, like I think sometimes, um, so w one of my, one of the students in my class wrote is I think beautiful sort of op-ed piece. And what I appreciated about it was like it was basically a love letter to, um, women of color who specifically I think showed her a lot of the responsibility for feeling like they have to basically save everyone, right? Like they have to be super women, um, because nobody else is going to do it and they can't quit because they don't get to. Um, and I think what is beautiful about the op-ed that the student wrote was that, um, it's a reminder that like that you don't have to, you don't have to do something. You don't have to basically, um, tire yourself out in order to save everyone. I don't, I don't know the who, who to attribute this to, but there's a line that I really liked that it's something to the extent of, um, you don't have to set yourself on fire to keep everyone warm. Um, and I think I resonated a lot with that line because I feel like often we have this mentality, especially as people of color, as Black people that like if we give up, then who else is going to do it? And the reality is like, we matter enough to take care of ourselves. And so I think if, if you feel like quitting is not an option because I think that some, some folks that they're not going to quit no matter what.

So my thing is like, I don't think I'm ever gonna advocate to somebody unless I feel like they are in dire situation that they simply quit. Like I'm not going to push somebody to just do that if they feel like they can't. What I will, however push them to do is to think about this. So if you're going to choose to stay in this place, then you have to then figure out X, Y, and Z. These are the X, Y, and Z or one, two and three things that I'm going to do in order to, in order to preserve my dignity. So for, so for example, like you're not gonna quit your PhD. Okay, so that's a non-negotiable. What then what are you going to do in order to like better take care of yourself so that you can make it through? Um, and I think sometimes folks make the choice to not quit something when they don't take the additional step of like figuring out how to create systems and mechanisms that will enable them to, to, to not quit, but also enable them to be healthier in the pursuit of whatever it is that they're doing. So my thing is if you have, if you have healthy coping mechanisms, if you have healthy systems of support, if you have health, the self care regimens, healthy healing practices, um, then you're, I think you're able to muster a lot more than if you don't. But my, my, my challenge is I often see people who are, who think quitting is a non-negotiable, but yet they also have not developed any other ways to cope in the midst of what they're doing. Um, so I think to me that's like the strategy that I would use is I would be, I would be forceful in saying, okay, well then you need to tell me three things that you're going to do to take care of yourself in the midst of doing this.

Um, so I think that's, that's what I would say in that case because to me it's not helpful to like, it's not helpful for me to keep telling somebody to quit something if they are refusing to do it. Right. Like that's just not, that's not productive. Um, so if I can concede the point that you're not going to quit this, what I am going to be push you on though is to like what are the ways that you're going to take care of yourself in this? Um, and when I say take care of yourself, I don't, I also mean things that are not just blahzay like, Oh, I'm gonna like, I'm going to go get a pedicure, I'm going to go to the spa. Like, those things are great, but they're not sustainable. So like, can you carve out like a day per week where you're not going to be in the office where you're going to work or, you know, things like that, that I feel like are more sustainable. Um, and, and to me, boundaries, setting firm boundaries is one of the healthiest things that one can do to take care of themselves. But many of us who are caretakers and who, um, are supportive and are caring, we have really terrible boundaries. And so that means we're taking on everyone's stuff on top of our own, which then leaves us further depleted. So for me, I think step one, if you're refusing to quit is how are you going to intervene healthier boundaries in the midst of doing this?

Best Practices for Self Care (Dr. Lacy): 

Yes. Um, all of it. Let's pause. Um, I, so I've been doing this business, I'm now over a little bit over two years and it has helped me, um, like my new mission has been how do you reimagine what it means to be a scholar and to be in academia? Um, because going back to the earlier things, like I have a lot of through my dissertation and even clients who say like, I went to X, Y, Z program because of XYZ faculty person. I got there and it just went left completely. And they're not the person that I thought they were. Um, and there's a lot of hurt there, but then they stay there and they're, you know, they're trying to finish. Um, and when they, maybe they didn't sign up with me because they are still with that person, but they don't feel like they're getting the support that they need. 

Um, and a lot of what I'm talking to people about is this exact conversation because we know writing isn't just writing and the reason why you're having most times, like nine times out of 10, the reason why you're having trouble showing up for your dissertation is because all the other life stuff that is happening because you are caring for everyone. And one of my first assignments that I tell people is that you have to have a day where you do nothing. I don't mean that you're not, not only are you not going into the office or not only are you not opening up a laptop to write anything, but this day also can't be for other people because of who we are. Like, if we're not doing school or work related things, there's other people who need us, whether that's friends or family and people think that it's like, Oh, I had a break.

I didn't do anything cause I, what about you? Like how do you take care of yourself? Um, and I mean people, they have the hardest time with that. Um, and so my new mission then it's like how can we help people put themselves first, like to take care of themselves. I again, like not like exactly what you were saying now. Not like, Oh, go get a pedicure. Go like go spend money. But really, how can on purpose, can you plan to just sit? Like today is the day that I watched Netflix for five hours and I feel guilty about it. I go walked outside, go for a hike and I'm not gonna feel guilty and I'm not gonna feel like I have to make up for it all the other days. Like it's about the systems in place that you have to make sure you can still make progress, but that you take care of yourself. So yes, that was everything that you said. I'm like, yes, yes, yes on the inside there. Yeah. Um, well now I'm like, I want to stay here. So a lot of people they, cause the first thing they'll say to me is, I can do that. I can take a break. And I guess I'm, I'm always wondering like, how do we help people to practice self care when you don't have a model? Like your faculty most likely in your program are not modeling that behavior or you know, being someone, um, maybe you have multiple marginalized identities. You don't, you never really get that message that you can just be. Um, so what are some practices that you have for yourself personally that helps you to take care of yourself and fill yourself back up?

Guest: Um, so I mean, yeah, so I do a couple of things consistently. So, so I guess I guess I start with just thinking about this of like, uh, a balance. Um, I think that's, it's a term that I hear people use very often. Um, I don't subscribe to balance. Um, mostly because I think we all, balance for me looks different than balance for somebody else. And so for me, I think what I subscribed to is like ebbs and flows. But that's, that's really how I live my life and ebbs and flows. So I'll, I'll give some, some specifics. So, um, before we started this podcast, Marvette and I were talking and, um, I said like, I, today it was a struggle for me. Like I, let's try like we just had Thanksgiving break last week. I was struggling to work today. Um, so I, I, I, uh, about five o'clock today, I felt a little bit of guilt for not getting much more done today. Mmm. And so for me, like today was kind of a, a day of like, I didn't really do much.

Um, that means like tomorrow I need to do more, um, in order to feel better about my week. Um, and so the so like ebbs and flows means like sometimes I might work, um, in the morning, I might write in the morning, then I might watch TV for the rest of the afternoon on a Tuesday, but then that means like maybe on Saturday evening I'm working. Um, and so I think that the thing about faculty life, and I think I also think about the thing about being a PhD student, especially when you're in the dissertation stage is like you can, you can like write all the time or you can write none of the time, especially if the reality is like you don't have the syllabus, you don't have deadlines. Um, and so it's, it's the same thing with faculty life. Like I can choose on a Monday to go to the grocery store and go to a movie, um, and not write or not work, but then that means maybe on a Sunday, um, I'm working.

Should=Shame

Guest: And so I think to me that's like the ebbs and flows is what I need. And that's sometimes, sometimes my week is heavier so I'm working in the evening. Other times I'm not working as much. And so it at the end of the semester, it maybe that's where the balance comes in. It all sort of balances out. But I think that I live my life and like ebbs and flows. Um, and so I think for me, one of the important things about self care, so when I, when I think about my self, first specifically, and this has come through also like three and a half years of counseling is one is I'm one of the most important impactful things that my counselor said to me. And this is my mantra. Like I have this written down in lots of different places in my house. Um, is every time you say the word should, the, the most immediate feeling that comes from should is shame.

Guest: Like, I should have written more today. So what's the immediate feeling that comes after that? You feel bad. You feel shame. Um, or I shouldn't have, I shouldn't have like stayed out too late with my friends. I should've been working on this paper instead. Shame. Um, I shouldn't have, I should be working right now instead of watching TV shame like so often we live our lives, I think as PhD students, as faculty in this space of like, should, I should be doing more, I shouldn't have done this. And they're the only, and maybe, maybe that's motivating for some people, but for most of us, then the immediate feeling that comes with that is this sense of like shame. And so I think one of the things that I practice really hard right now to deal with my self care, um, is I let go of the language of should, right? 

So for example, um, I could spend all of my time today thinking I should have worked more today, but the reality is like my brain wasn't there, my body wasn't there. And so I needed this day to not work. And so, so my thing is like, listen, listen to your body, right? Because the reality is like, it's, it's worse if you're trying to write or you're trying to work, um, and you, and you sit there for six hours and you don't get anything done. Um, the reality is like, if you're battling about whether or not you should, if your body is telling you you need to rest and you're trying to work, the reality is like, you're not gonna feel good at the end of that time. So just take the time to not work, um, and be okay with that. And then just know that you needed that time in order to rest and recuperate.

Guest: And so for me, for example, today at about three o'clock when I was like in this dance of like I can still work, I should've just stopped there and, and not worked and just called in the day. But instead I didn't, I didn't practice my own practice today in the sense that I spent instead three to five o'clock trying to do some email and trying to do little things when in the reality is I'm maybe got two or three emails done and then I sort of goofed around most of the time. So why didn't I just goof around the entire time? Right. So I mean I think that's, that's like what I'm saying is like sometimes like our body tells us what we need and the reality is like we, if we don't listen to it, then we feel bad about ourselves. So just take the break if that's what your body is telling you that you need and then just come back and recharge and focused and ready to go.

Guest: So I think that's for me, that's like step one is to like remove the use of should in my life as much as I can to become aware of when I'm using the word should to note it and to like let go of the shame that comes with that. Um, and then I think related to that step two then is to like listen to your body. So if your body's feeling like you need a break, like take that. Um, and then for me, I think step three is like boundaries. So we have to set firm boundaries. So for example, for me right now as a faculty member, Thursdays is the day that I write. I'm not the kind of person who I can write for an hour here, I can write for 30 minutes there. I know that works for some people. It doesn't work for me. I need at least like two hours if I'm going to write. And so I blocked those two hours off and I guard that day, uh, with my whole life. Like I don't put anything else on my calendar that day. Um um, and the other thing I think we often forget about taking care of ourselves too is like I think the thinking is also writing and reading is writing. And sometimes we don't account for that in the process. And so for me, I think when we, when we, when we account for that, we set better boundaries as well. So I might, I block my calendar off for four hours, but the reality is like I might spend three of those hours reading and only one of those writing, but the three hours was needed in order to get the one hour of writing. Um, so I think that's also like important. So again, setting good boundaries I think is, is important. Um, the other thing about boundaries that I will say is that, um, like I am, I'm a really sensitive, I have really big feelings and so I take on a lot of people's energy and feelings.

Guest: Um, and that was really hard for me in order to be able to do anything else. And so what I've really worked on now too is like setting good boundaries in the sense of like, not everyone deserves all of my energy, my emotional energy. So I tried to reserve my emotional energy and I'm, and I'm frank about it with myself, I reserve my emotional energy for people of color primarily, um, and primarily Black students in my, in my life. Like they're the ones who get my emotional energy. I don't give my emotional energy to white people anymore. Um, cause the reality is like I don't really get anything back from that. Right. So the reality is like, I, so with boundaries too, like not everyone, not everyone deserves your, your energy. 

Um, so reserve your energy for the people in your life that are your people and, and try to not let everyone come take all of your energy because then you, you're depleted when, when you're, when you're trying to do really big things like, write. Um, so I think that's another, that's sort of the third piece for me. And then lastly, um, it's about mindset and mentality. So for me that's through running. Um, some of the days that I run, I feel like my energy is different. I use that time of running to like focus to think, to be present. Um, some people do that through yoga. Some people do it through like meditation practices. Some people do that through religion, spirituality, prayer. So whatever it is that like helps your mind be present and focus, to me it's like the other important piece around self care.

Advice for the Dissertation Stage (Dr. Lacy): 

That's so much. I love all of this. I am one: going to play this for my clients, were just all going to listen, were going to have a listening party. And then I transcribe all the podcasts for my blog and yes, there's so much. It's like, I mean this could be a whole like Master class. Um, I really, I really liked the moment you say should: shame comes in. Um, cause another thing that I do with clients, it's the same thing about your thoughts make you feel a certain way and when you feel a certain way, you behave a certain way and that you have to pay attention to that. Um, because there is many a clients who will say that they will sit down at their laptop staring at a blank screen crying cause they can't write. I mean, I did it during the dissertation process. Um, moreso, I was like, why am I doing this ridiculous timeline?

But you know, that's a whole other conversation. Um, but yeah, like just because they feel like well I should be able to do this, I should be able to write more. I should know like what exactly what to say. Like I've been in school for all this time, I should be done. It shouldn't take this long. It's like all these should and you don't feel good about yourself. You can't feel good about yourself when you're saying things like that and it's not helpful. Um, and a lot of times I do, I say like, stop, like there's no point to force yourself to sit there cause you're not gonna do anything. Um, and I would just describe like this last week as exactly what was happening for me, I had all these plans that I was going to do all this stuff over the break and my body was like, no, you moved to a whole other state.

You never, I never slowed down on business or anything. I just kept my same pace as if I didn't have this big transition and a new job. And it caught up with me and I was having a conversation with a friend to say, my main job for this week is to allow myself to watch all these hours of TV that I've never do and to work on, not feeling guilty about it. I'm trying to save December. And what I meant by that was I'm allowing myself to do this and take this break that I need, but I'm not going to go down the shame spiral because I, if I do, then I won't do anything for December. So my only job is to be like, this is what you need and it's fine. And this we still have a whole other 31 days in December to do all the things that you need to do. Yeah. Okay. Well I'm gonna, um, combine, I guess like the last two questions that I was originally going to ask so that I'm not completely abandoning. I'm trying not to be my "P" self in terms of Meyers, Meyers-Briggs. Um, okay. When you think about your own dissertation journey and, and the, you know, the countless students that you advise or, and mentor, um, what like what words of um, advice, what would you say to that student, who's in the middle of trying to finish the dissertation?

Guest: Yeah. So I mean, I think, I think that the first thing that I was saying, and I resonate so much with what you said about folks being in tears or staring at a screen, um, this applies to so many things in life, but like be kind to yourself. Um, the reality is like you've never written a dissertation before, right? So there's why should you know how to do this? And I think that's the, that's the thing that I think we often don't think about as PhD students. Like we haven't done this before. Um, so I think a lot about, like, I, I was trying to teach my, I have an eight year old son, um, Sebastian and I was trying to teach them how to ride a bike without training wheels this summer. Um, and he was really frustrated, um, with himself. And I just, I started to think to myself like, why is this?

Guest: Like, what is what's, I've tried, I was trying to figure out what the struggle was or why it was so hard for him to pick this up. Um, and then it occurred to me, I mean, it's like, duh, like you've never done this before. The reality is like, uh, like when, you know, when a baby's learning how to walk, like what ha, what happens? Like the fall, they run into things, they stumble, like they hurt themselves. And then none of us really remember when we were trying to walk cause it's just natural at that point. Um, so I think like the other thing that my counselor often would say to me, cause I'm also really hard on myself. Like he would say to me like, like what would you say to a friend who said, who said that to you? Like, how would you respond to your friend?

Guest: And often our, I respond to my friend with a lot of compassion, the same compassion that I was not giving myself. And so similarly I think for, for PhD students, like I was extra hard on myself in the process and the reality is like, why would I have known how to write a dissertation? So I needed to start by being kinder to myself. Um, so I think to me that's like the first thing is to like give yourself some grace and be kind to yourself because much like you said, Marvette, like you're not going to be, you're not going to be able to do anything if you're beating yourself up to start with. Um, like that's, that's not productive. So I think that's the first thing is to be kind to yourself. Um, the other thing I think is like, is that I found helpful is to like just read other dissertations and I don't think you have to like, dissertations are long, right? So I don't, I'm not expecting somebody to like sit down for a weekend read like 12 dissertations. Like, who's got time for that? First of all, I think. But I, I do think like reading other dissertations helps demystify the process. Um, just like when you're submitting an article, like you've read art, you've read other articles. So I think yeah, that's the other step is like reading other dissertations. Um, and then I think also like, um, like focus on focus on the skill sets that you do have. So for example, I was, I had a lot of like, imposter syndrome stuff come up with this associate editor of, um, JDHE role. Um, like I'm like, I'm never like, what am I supposed to do as an associate editor? And then I started to like list the things that I, that I have done that are similar, right?

Guest: So, for example, as an associate editor, part of my responsibility is making decisions on manuscripts. And so the reality is like I listed the thing. So A: I've read some articles before, B: I've written some articles and then C: like I've also given people feedback before. So the reality is like I was looking at this associate editor role as if I had zero experience doing any of these tasks just because like that's what often comes up for me when I'm doing something new is I I list all of the ways that I'm not qualified to be doing this. Um, and then reality is like I have, I have done translatable skills, skills that are very applicable to this associate editor role. So similarly for, for PhD process as a PhD student, what I needed, what I needed to tell myself during that time was like, again, make the list of the things that I've done that are translatable to this role.

Guest: So A: at that time I had like done a lit review before it was a smaller lit review. But I had done that. B: like, I had read other people's writing before. C: I had written other papers, like there's no way I would've gotten to my dissertation process if I hadn't written other papers. So the reality is like, I know I've written some things which gives me the belief that I know how to write. Umm. And so I think to me, I think I would, I would share that same thing with like students now is like, what are the things that you've done that are related to this role? So yes, you've never written a dissertation, but have you done these three things that are necessary in order to be able to write a dissertation? Right. So I think that helps you sort of like see that you have some, you do have some skill set in this process and you're not having to like start from, from ground zero.

Guest: I think it's like what I'm getting at in that, in that place. Um, and then I think number four, probably the last thing is, and I tell students this so often, and I told myself this as well. Like often we look at, we look at a paper, we look at our computer screen and we measure our success by how much you've written on a particular day. So if I've written just a paragraph, I've looked at that and I say, Oh my God, this was a waste of time. I spent six hours and all I have is one paragraph on this paper. Um, I think that's a, that's not a good way to look at it. Like the reality is like, um, one paragraph is better than zero first of all. And then secondly, I, I think we often don't count all of the things that are necessary in order to be able to write. So for example, like I don't know what anybody who just sits at their computer and then you know, just like starts typing away and like...

Dr. Lacy:

Well you don't do that cause that's what I'm sure that's what people think. I'm sure they think you sit down and gold just comes out and you're like, welp, 20 minutes, there it is.

Guest: Right. But I think that's like, that's the something that we have of like people who we consider to be like prolific, but they just like, you know, like they wake up, like they make their coffee, like they turn on their computer, they sit down, and then they just like go and then two hours later they have this manuscript. Like, I don't know anybody who does that. The reality is like for me, like what my process actually looks like is I sit down, I open Facebook, I go to my laptop, I turn on some music, um, I go to the Chronicle or Inside Higher Ed, I look at ESPN scores. Like I do all of these things for like the first 30 minutes and then I start writing. And so I think that that to me is like, I just know, like that's my process, which is why I don't give myself 45 minutes to write because the reality is like, I'm going to use 30 minutes just goofing off.

Guest: And that's just, that's just what I need to do. And so if I give myself two hours, I know that I'm actually, I'm actually working for an hour and a half of it. So I think that's my other piece of advice is to like, you have to be self aware. Like you have to know your process of, of what it's like for you when you sit down. Um, and if you need to tell yourself mantras or pep talk or all of these pieces, then do that. But all of this is to say like if you, if you are wanting to write for an hour, I think you should actually block off an hour and a half because again, I don't know anybody who just sits down and then just goes at it. Like I think we all sort of like have to get into it before we start going. And then even once I get into it, I might write for like three minutes and then I stop. And then I think that I look at, I look up an article and all of that counts. Right? And so I think we often don't factor in all of these other things that we're doing that are moving us towards the goal or we just nearly look at the output, the words on the page and then like that's it. So I think self awareness is also really critical in this process.

Unlearning Perfectionism (Dr. Lacy): 

Yes. And I, this is so affirming for me cause I'm like this is everything I've been saying and I'm just, I'm glad to hear it. I feel like I would be, I feel like I hear people in my head. And the other parts of that though, like the students have this idea that people just sit down and they just you know put out these manuscripts and they don't have to do any editing and feedback. And so a lot of clients will say, well I just want to take my time because my whole philosophy is I just need you to write whatever's coming to your mind on a piece of paper and turn it into somebody. Because writing is about feedback and editing. Like, like you say, like no one is sitting down writing like this perfect manuscript that they're like, they send it and it's, nobody ever gives them any feedback. That's not how this works. Like you need an editor, everyone has an editor like it. Like, especially if you're, you know, doing this consistently. But a lot of people will say, well no, I want to take time now and I want to make it perfect now so that when I give it to my chair, I don't have to worry about feedback, editing. I can save time on the back end. And so then that paralyzes them, right. Because they're trying make it perfect. And so I do seek to the whole life feedback cause I don't understand why people are like, no, that, it's going to be fine. I'm going to save all this time. You don't know what you're doing. So you can't save time.

Guest: I mean, I think all of that is true. And I mean, I actually learned this from one of my really good friends, Sam, um, as a doc student. So Sam and I were both at Penn state at the same time. Um, and I, I'm a perfectionist. I mean right now I call myself a recovering perfectionist, um, because I think I'm trying to undo a lot of the things that I have learned as a perfectionist. Um, and the reality is like, my, like again, that's as my counselor would say like, my counselor needs, like, I feel like he needs like $25 every time I mentioned his name on this podcast because like, he got my life together in so many ways. But like one of the other things that he would say is like, um, oh shoot like I'm talking now, I just lost what he said. So I was talking about being a perfectionist that Oh, holding onto things too long. Um, and so like the reality is like, I don't know what my counselor was saying, but it'll come back to me. But what what Sam was, um, was the feedback that Sam would give me is that like the reality is like you're going to get, Sam's philosophy is like, I'm going to get feedback anyway, so why am I going to spend all this time making this manuscript perfect? I'm just going to send it out. I think it's good enough knowing that it's not going to get accepted outright anyway. Whereas I would hold onto it for so long and then when I got feedback, I would be completely demoralized by the feedback because I was expecting to not get much feedback.

Guest: Right. And so the reality is like nowadays when I send things out that I know are not, are not perfect and it just good enough and I get feedback, um, I don't like any, I mean, feedback is still hard for me, but the sense is it feels different because the reality is like I get the feedback and I'm like, well, I already knew that this wasn't, this was not perfect. So my expectations were that I was like, you weren't going to accept it anyway. Right. Whereas if I wait too long and I sent it out and it gets rejected, then I'm like completely mortified. Mmm. So I think that that's like one of the important pieces that I, um, that I learned from, from Sam is like not holding onto things too long. Um, and again, like all of this is like, it's, it's still a work in progress.

Guest: Like that's why I say it's, I'm a recovering because my perfectionist tendencies like are still there. Um, but they're not as like strong as they used to be. So my sense is like, it needs to get to a place where it feels good enough. And I think the followup question that many people might ask is like, well, how do you, how do you know if it's good enough? Um, and the reality is like you, like in some ways you don't. Um, but that's why I think like send it off and get feedback. Like I told my students who I'm working with, like, I don't, I don't want you to send me an entire chapter one, like, wait three months to send me an entire chapter one, like send me the first three pages and I can give you feedback on that because I just want you to like the to like keep working. And so if you've spent, if you've spent five months just working on chapter one and then you send me the whole thing, you're going to be really demoralized if I tell you like this needs to go a completely different direction, but if you send me the first three pages and just get it off your plate, then at least like when I give it back to you, you can say, Oh well that was only, that was only three pages, right? So I can like cut this, I can do this as opposed to like I'm asking you to like revise like 25 pages. Um, and so I think that the struggle is like that I have found with my students where I'm working with is sometimes it is like is like intimidation, right? Like, you know, they see me as this like, Oh, I don't like this, rock star, for lack of a better way.

Dr. Lacy: Yes, say it!

Guest: So, it's like, Oh my God, like I'm sending my work to like Steven John Quaye, like it has to be like perfect. And the reality is like, I, I get that and I know where that's coming from. Like I felt the same when I was sending Sean my work. But the reality is like, umm. Like part of that is like, I'll send you half to, whatever you need to do to get over that, like you just have to, because the reality is that's going to hold you up. Um, and so you have to look at it and it's like you're sending your feedback to somebody else who's going to give you some, who's going to send you your or your paper to somebody else who's going to give you some feedback. And so it doesn't need to be perfect. And so part of what I do is I'm also explicit with students about my own writing process.

Guest: And, um, like when I host students and do writing sessions, I share with them. Like, I think writing together in groups is also helpful because you can sometimes see what other people are doing. Um, and so people who work with me on research teams like they see like the way in which we write, um, and get feedback. Um, and also like part of it is like experience, right? So I've written more and so I have the, I have more experience writing and so you do get better with this the more you do it. Um, but I think that's, I think that to me is like my, my notion about feedback is like, like you have to let go of the perfectionism because it's going to hold you back. And I don't know how to, I don't know how to like support somebody in letting go of that.

Guest: Um, because I know for me, I like, it wasn't through Sean telling me that like I had to do it through counseling because that was like, that was some way bigger, deeper stuff that was not going to get worked out in a PhD program or as a faculty member. Like I needed to work it out, like with a, with, with a trained professional, because it was really like deep seeded for me. Um, and so even even as I'm talking on this podcast right now and like it's a work in progress. Like I'm so much better now than I ever used to be and it's still my comfort it's my comfort spot. Like going to perfectionism, it's like it's a comfortable place. Um, Oh. And so this brings us back to my counselor. So this is why, I knew if I just kept babbling, I knew it would come back. And so basically, um, one of the most impactful things that, that my counselor said was like, again, like perfectionism is not bad. And I think that's the, that's the thing that I think often perfectionists struggle with is that we're, we're socialized to believe it's a bad thing. The reality is like, we, we developed the way that we do in order to like cope with what's in front of us. So my perfectionist tendencies has helped me significantly in my life. Mmm. But it's all, but as my life has gotten more complex, it's also not worked as effectively.

Guest: And so I think that's, that's the thing is like the perfectionism has, has lost its ability to work in the ways that it used to because now it's, it's actually harmful. It's actually holding me back. And so, and so that's the thing like, like we develop in the way that we need to in order to get to our place in life. But then sometimes that same way that we've developed as a coping mechanism, it's now what's standing in the way of us moving forward. And so we have to address it. Um, and so I just want folks who are listening to know that like, you don't have to beat yourself for being, if you're a perfectionist for being that like you developed that way for a reason. And I want you to reflect and ask yourself, is that now holding you back from doing, from being a better version of yourself? And if the answer is yes, then I think that's, then it's time to like try to work to let go of that. Um, and figure out other ways to like move through life that are healthier and that are more productive. And that's what I needed to do. Even though the perfectionism is my sweet spot. It's my comfort place but it's not always helpful or healthy. Um, and so I had to figure out other ways to like cope that were going to be more productive and healthier.

Final Thoughts (Dr. Lacy): 

Oh, I love all of this. Um, and I know we are at time, um, this concept of time. Um, I, I be, I feel like there needs to be like a part two of this conversation because the other piece is, you know, faculty who I like, I absolutely cannot read this. If a comma is missing, you need to just where that's coming from and how that gets ingrained and just in general, um, helping the people who are on the other side. Cause it's also this thing that's this false, I guess, idea of once I graduate and I'm, I have that hood and I have those, those three letters behind my name, um, that is, it's going to be all good. Everything's going to be easy and you just, it's a new to whole new levels. So like it's kind of similar stuff, but it doesn't get quote unquote easier. Like life just doesn't, I don't know, just flow. So I feel like we should have like a part two, but I absolutely love this. I'm so thankful for you sharing your time. Um, and all of your words of knowledge. Um, I also note that you are a big introvert, like I am. And so I'm going to delve into this question. I'm very, I'm treading lightly of if people would like to connect with you, what would be the best way for them to reach out to you. Um, folks usually say social media platform, um, that they prefer.

Guest: Yeah. So I think, um, probably Twitter is the best for me. Um, do you want me to say my Twitter handle?

Dr. Lacy: Yes. I'll also have it linked in the show notes.

Guest: Yeah, it's just @ESJAYQUE and it's just phonetically spelled out. Um, cause I'm clever like that. So, uh, E S. J. A Y. Q. U. E.

Dr. Lacy: Yes.Thank you so much! Thank you for joining in for today's office hours. Make sure you come on Instagram and tag me @Marvette Lacy, let me know what your thoughts were on today's episode. Until next time, do something to show yourself some love. I'll talk to you next week. Bye for now.