Episode 42: Niah Grimes - Healing Through the Dissertation Journey

Name: Niah Grimes

Pronouns:she/her/hers

Location: Atlanta, GA

Title: no titles are capturing my spirit at this time

Instagram: @ihatechickpeas

Introduction: 

Hey friend, the time has come to finish your dissertation, graduate and become doctor. Welcome to office hours or Dr. Lacy where we talk about how to finally master this time management thing so you can stay on top of it without losing your mind. Every Wednesday you can find a new episode wherever you listen to podcasts. Make sure you hit the subscribe button to make sure you never miss an episode. I'm Dr. Marvette Lacy, your dissertation writing strategist here to be with you along every step of the way and I would like to thank you for coming to today's office hours. Let's get started on today's episode. Hey, one quick thing before we get started with today's episode. Have you downloaded your Qual Scholars plan of study yet? You know the plan that walks you through step by step so you can go from feeling stuck, confused, and overwhelmed to feeling like you finally have your shit together. I'll tell you exactly what you need to do for more discipline, consistency and structure in your dissertation process. All you need to do is go to MarvetteLacy.com/Plan to get your copy today. Now for real, let's get on to the show.

Tell Us About You (Dr. Lacy):

Um, so just tell us a little bit about who you are and where you're located and your program.

Guest: Okay. So, uh, my name is Niah Grimes. I use she, her, hers pronouns and I am a current third year in my program at the University of Georgia.

Dr. Lacy: And what program are you in?

Guest: I'm in. So look that's contested. I believe it's been changed and I don't know if I'm supposed to use the change or not, but I'm in the CSAA program, so college student affairs administration program, um, in the college of education at UGA.

Dr. Lacy: Uh, so I use CSAA because that's what's on like marketing materials and that's what's been on those materials. Even though the name wasn't officially changed with us. What people know it is so

Guest: Right. CSAA gang, it's, it is what it is. I just am like, I mean I have such, I'm like, so CSAA is part of the identity now, so I don't know what y'all change it to but CSAA is what I represent, I guess.

Dr. Lacy: I'm always interested to know, um, for people who decide to go get terminal degrees, like, you know, you don't have other degrees that are perfectly you know ok. Why would you go get a PhD?

Guest: So it's such a good question. Why would you? Run! Maybe not, maybe not. Um, so it's funny, I have a terminal degree in counseling and I really did think at the time that I was getting that degree that I would be happy counseling forever. Like I wouldn't need another degree because there's so much around continuing education and counseling where it's like you don't need a bunch of degrees to learn. And I really valued that about the field. But then of course, practice is one thing. And so when I began practicing in the field and I've worked in disability resources, mental health counseling as well as career counseling, all in higher education. 

Um, I just was heartbroken by the gaps in student affairs and higher education. And the curious like researcher in me just couldn't keep quiet. Um, anytime I'm pulling like periodicals and you know, peer reviewed journals to bring to staff meetings and like to do new initiatives. And my boss was looking at me like, what are you doing? So I thought that was a sign to maybe consider getting a PhD. And then when, um, I lost a student to suicide, it just felt like sort of bell hooks said in teaching to transgress. You know, I turned to theory because I was hurting and I really needed to do some healing and spiritual, like qualitative research that was really gonna start to get at something like the nine questions that were keeping me up and keeping me frustrated.

Dr. Lacy: And so far, I mean, you're three years in, how is the reality matching up to the reasons of why you wanted to continue education?

Guest: Hmm. So I think naively at first, I thought getting this degree would give me more power. And I think it will give me privilege in a lot of ways, but, um, I don't think it's going to give me the power that I'm, that I'm looking for. I think that that's going to require a dismantling of these systems of oppression that is going to occur. Uh, hopefully before I die. People do not believe that, but I do. And so I just think that like I'm not going to get, yeah. So that, that was just unrealistic. Um, however, I think as far as the theory, the practice, the research, the writing, like getting all of those skills, I, I, I'm definitely getting them. So that's very, I think, accurate and consistent with what I imagined. Um, I would say the biggest surprise is just how unwell you have to be, um, to get this degree and how that is so normalized.

The Un-Wellness Of It All (Dr. Lacy):

Mm. Look, can we talk more about that? Because I have been on this whole, I've been living in this and sitting with this, uh, the culture that's perpetuated throughout higher education. And even, I mean, we can argue for other fields as well. However, this is, this happens to be the road that I'm in and we're in. Um, and I've been thinking about like, so business and coaching with clients of you don't, my message consistently, especially for the past six months or so is this dissertation process doesn't have to be one that breaks you down. You can have joy and you can have peace. You can live your own life and do this.

Guest: Mm mm.

Dr. Lacy: And that seems far fetched to some of like, what do you mean that doesn't go together? But I'm really like, how do we change this narrative? Because just because someone said it's how it had to be doesn't mean it has to be that way. So if you could talk more about just some of your thoughts as it relates to, um, un-wellness um in the academy.

Guest: Yeah. I think one would, I have to name is that the standards are just unreasonable. Period. They're capitalists, they're entrenched in white supremacy, Cis-hetero-patriarchy, imperialism like, and the standards just require you to continuously produce and, um, in order to perform well and to eat and to live and to be successful in the field. Um, and if you don't do that, you are penalized. Like you're not going to get the jobs and the benefits and the support and the security and the stability as others who are really willing to just write or perish. And I just don't, like you said, I don't believe in that. I don't believe that that should be, I don't believe that that produces good scholarship. I don't believe that that heals our community. I don't think it makes us better educators. And, um, I don't think it's something that should be taught to doctoral students who are then supposed to educate others later.

Um, however, and I think it's especially frustrating and sort of like this very meta, uh, world of like I'm being, uh, taught by the institution in which I'm studying and learning to critique and y'all know, to research just like I know the research that says this shit is whack and this is not healthy. Um, the people that look like me and identify as I do, I don't think a lot of them make it. I think we drop out, I want to drop out every day and I'm privileged in that I have a research assistantship, right? I have community, um, support. I'm in a program that isn't as harmful as others. Right? But regardless, this is so harmful. And then I think that a lot of us are just compliant in it because it's all we know or it's what happens, it's what's been done. And for me it's like, well, how do I show y'all that that isn't okay? And that's not something I'm going to be compliant in. And so I think what you said that really interested me is you can practice your joy and get a dissertation, right? Like we do not just because this is the current status quo does not mean we have to uphold it and you know, I, I, part of me is like, Ugh, but then can you get through like can you do it successfully, um, and be healthy? I don't know the answer to that.

Dr. Lacy: And I guess I wonder, I guess the, my immediate response would then be like, what does it mean to get through? Um, it also, um, I've been challenging people to reconsider what was the end goal is. Like, are you going after something? So, you know, I talk about the whole write to publish or perish by asking people, do you even want a tenure track position or are you doing it because that's somebody else is doing that and you saw it like on Twitter or someone else's telling you that's what you need to do. Or that's the traditional route, right? Because there are plenty of people out here who are not tenure track, who are clinical faculty who are killing the game or maybe do you even want to be faculty? I mean, there's so many options other than this like I either have to be like a practitioner or practical faculty. And this very same narrative that's been given to us of like you're someone, you go in and you do all the things, you publish, all the things you kind of see, write, write, write and do all this service, um, in hopes that you get promoted and tenured.

Guest: Right?

Lets' Re-imagine (Dr. Lacy):

It doesn't, I mean, so I always ask people like question what it is that you actually do want and if you could re-imagine what life could be like or the possibilities, what would that look like?

Guest: Hmm. You want me to answer that question cause I love a re-imagine?

Dr. Lacy: Yes. I would love to hear your answer.

Guest: So for me, I think a lot of my close friends know this. I just want to create art, whether that be books or movies or film or whatever it is that my soul needs to create. I just want to be able to create it. I want to heal people and I want to teach period. Now, it just so happens the path that I'm on, you know, I think aligns most closely with a tenure track faculty role. But for me, I'm just really interested in creating art that will shift culture and I just want to do that in ways that are sustainable from myself and my family. So hopefully that all while being near somebody coast, it doesn't gotta be an America. It don't,

Go With Purpose (Dr. Lacy): 

Hey, you never know where you could where you may end up then. I love this. Now I'm excited to see. Um, but yeah, I, you know, probably going to have to have you back. So to have like a whole episode dedicated to what is healing in this journey look like? Um, but for like a little piece of it, what, what advice or I don't know, helpful information or strategies would you give to other doc students like yourself in this journey who are like, I mean I want to get through and I want to finish and I just, I just need a little bit of something to get me there.

Guest: Right. I think it's really important for me in, and so I can only talk about like how I've been getting through it. Um, and then I guess, you know, my limited observation of what I've seen in folks that I work with. For me it's been the, just having so much purpose. Like if I didn't feel like I was doing this for a purpose, that specifically I would say it's spiritual. Like it feels very ancestral and, um, and I do like, I do think deeply about the history and the fact that like my grandmother and her mother's mother were not able to get this degree. That'd be the first in my family to obtain this degree. Um, and that hopefully students, um, who are diverse from me, will get to learn from me and I will get to learn from them and like what impact will that have? So I try to always ground myself in like, okay, what is the larger purpose greater than myself that guides me in this? Because if I'm not doing it for that, then it's not worth it. It's not cause this is trash and I don't want to be shy about that. I need everyone to know I hate it.

I start with purpose. Um, I think then 2: being very clear about my boundaries, like I see all this unhealthy stuff going on. I see what people are doing and not doing. Um, well what is important for me, um, to remain as healthy as I can in this. And so like that does mean being able to travel home to family, um, to be able to travel abroad or just travel in general because I get so much energy from that. Um, it means not living in a place where I don't feel welcome, so I commute. And so like I just had to do certain things that for some I knew what wasn't going to work, but because of my values and what I needed to succeed, like I'm just very strict about those boundaries. I wouldn't do multiple conferences in a year just because conferences are exhausting and I knew, you know, that okay, yeah, whatever, my CV may lack. But physically, mentally, spiritually, it was better for me when I'm a candidate and I don't have all this coursework, you know, I can do different things. 

So also being flexible that each year calls for something different. So I was able to sort of like assess for that and move within that. Um, and then I think the last thing would be, it's really important for me in this to have people, and luckily I can say that plural, that can affirm me continuing to see me clearly because I don't feel like myself, I feel like a shadow of myself in this experience. So it's really important for me to have people around me who can see me and affirm me, um, and really just validate the experience I'm having. Allow me to ride the wave of emotions that you have to ride as a doc student and, um, and hold me up. So those have been the things that have gotten me through and I hope if people have access to those things or if that resonates with them, um, you know, they can start to incorporate those things into their lives as well.

Dr. Lacy: I hope that people got their pen and paper ready cause that was so those are a lot of gems. Um, switching gears a little bit, you talk to us about your research. So, um, I know you are currently working on your publishable paper, right? Um, if you want to talk about that or any other projects that you are involved in.

Come to Qual Scholars! (Dr. Lacy):

Need some more help, then you should sign up for the Quals scholars writing workshop. In a few hours, I will show you exactly how to figure out this time management thing once and for all. I'm talking about not only having the time to get things done, but actually having the motivation to get them done. No more sitting down at your laptop, spinning your wheels, trying to figure out what you should be writing. Instead, feel so confident that when you open up a document, the words come pouring out of your fingers. That's what the qual scholars writing workshop is all about. Get so clear on how to achieve your goals that you will feel like you're cheating. Sign up today at marvettelacy.com/writing workshop.

Tell Us About Your Research (Guest):

Right. So great. Yeah. So, um, right now, well, when I first got to UGA, you and I, we were on a large content analysis, of campus sexual violence. ROPs summer 2020. Y'all ain't ready. And so I think that paper really showcased to me something we already knew was that Black women, especially queer, trans, gender nonconforming Black women who were experiencing sexual violence were not, um, they were not represented in the literature at all. And when they were, they were at HBCU use as being compared to white women. Um, and they were cis-heterosexual. Um, and so there was just been so much limited research on um, our experience and I'll say our, I am a survivor victim of campus sexual violence. So no surprise that I come to that work. Um, and so yeah, right now I'm doing a narrative inquiry where I'm looking at three distinct participants, um, who are all in different sort of tenures in their academic careers who have experienced campus sexual violence and are persisting and a lot of like they're persisting uniquely from each other but persisting nonetheless, and so I'm doing a really cool study with them right now and the participants are just a really authentic, really lively, they have a lot to say.

And so it's just been fun. Um, learning from them. I have been thinking about and gearing up at, cause I'm applying for funding for my dissertation, which is going to be a sacred ethnography on being queer, disabled, Black and femme in higher education. Um, and really trying to look at the experience of, okay, we talk about being marginalized and being within the margin within the margin. Like, you know, and y'all talk about how we're targeted and how hard it is for us and what's going on. But I'm not seeing anything structurally reflecting any of these changes. I'm not seeing us being able to really look at our identities in ways that are whole, um, that are decolonial, that make room for spirit and that, um, don't box me into one identity or the other. Um, and so I'm hoping to do a really cool intersectional analysis there and um, yeah, once, you know, yeah, just getting, getting all that up and going. But that's pretty much what I'm looking at now.

Dr. Lacy: Oh, so delicious. I can't wait to read it all. Um, and we were going to wait. We gonna pick it up, we gonna by it. Whatever that means or you know, going for the journal to get it.

Guest: Okay! There hopefully will be a visual component too because I'm here for all of us and all of our abilities and how we need to learn.

Writing Hacks (Dr. Lacy):

It's just so much. I feel like it's just, we can just stop down. Um, so you, I mean, you have experiences like on researching, writing manuscripts for publication, being published during this publishable paper. Like what, people are always like, how do you get the writing done? Um, because it just seems like, where do you start? I don't even know how to frame up a research project on my own. Like just people are like, just help. Um, so any words of wisdom about proposals or writing research or any, um, lack of a better term, hacks?

Guest: So, okay. Here's the thing, and I'm going to go off about this cause I'm passionate about this and I think it kind of connects to what we mentioned before is the corporatization of higher ed and just this like fast pace. Okay. Did that onto the next, did that onto the next. And that's how it feels as a student. I think it feels like that as a faculty, right? Especially if you're trying to get tenure. I think it definitely feels like that if you are in student affairs and you are an admin, it feels like that every day, right? Like you're just putting out fires and just, we just get it done. Um, and so I think what's hard is that to do good research, uh, and to like write good research, you have to read and spend a lot of time thinking and grappling with, um, these concepts and theories and data.

Um, and it's so hard because, well, when you have this paper due and this conference presentation and this manuscript and this, this, this, this, this. It's hard to really immerse yourself in the literature and really read. Um, and so I try to make time for reading in all of the ways that I can, um, because I find that my writing is best when I've been able to really read and digest it. Um, and so what I did was I knew that like, I was going to have to write this proposal for my dissertation before I had even sat for comps that don't make sense. However you gotta get this bag. So I took a class last fall to start thinking about this topic. And some people will say, that's apropos. You're not supposed to do that. But it's like, I knew y'all wasn't going to give me the time to do it. So I made time and nobody can check me for that. So I think you gotta be strategic, um, to work within this capitalist bullshit. You really gotta be strategic. You have to think about what's important. Um, but reading for me is fundamental and you'd be surprised how many people aren't reading.

Reading is Fundamental (Guest):

So I think, yeah, that's, that's where I start. Then the whole like people, everyone was like write every day, what does that mean? I didn't know what that meant. I was like write what everyday? And then I started journaling every day and i got it. I was like, Oh okay. Because being in this doc life, my journals were theory. It was like my journals weren't like that they were before, they were different types of journals and so I started coding and organizing my journals and different things and I was able to pull from just that writing or that writing would lead to thinking about whatever paper I was working on. And so I found that just writing a little bit each day. Like I like to start the day with a journal or end the day with a journal. Usually cause I have a lot to process. Um, that has just helped me keep uh, a constant like writing routine.

Guest: But then also I have a good idea about like, okay, where am I at, what do I need to read more? Because I have a lot of questions about this and my that journal from two days ago, things like that. So it's a good assessment for me. So those are the two things I do the most. And then one thing that you and I discussed and I was like, you do that. Oh my gosh Marvette. I do that too. And I felt so seen cause I was like if the brilliant Marvette does it, I'm doing something right. And this was my first year in my doc program, but the brain dump, you have to kind of like just get out what you want to say and how you wanna say it. Cause sometimes I just want to write real hood. Like these n****s ain't shit, colonizing all my African Queens. It's ridiculous. Then they go and make whiteness a mother ***ing commodity shit like that sometimes how you gotta get it out. But sometimes you've got to get it out first before I can get to "historically black women's bodies have been erased and ignored. You know, before I can get to that shit. Brain dump people.

Dr. Lacy: Yeah, I um, and I would, you know the person who reads like, who approves the stuff to be like you could sit and you could send it just like that and she would be like, Oh I hear you, but we won't be able to publish that. So if you could change it.

Guest: You cannot talk about interest convergence like you talking to your mama. Why not Dr. Linder?

Dr. Lacy: She's going to be on a podcast too in a few weeks. So I think this hilarious, but I have been getting chills every time we talk I get chills. Um, and that part, that answer to that question, I am going to take that out instead of write it and just put it on my website. Let me tell you why I feel like every day or like every time I have a call with somebody, cause this is gonna sound they're going, I'm like, isn't that a contradicting like what I normally say. And what I normally tell people to stop reading. But this is why I don't go into the detail, but like you summed it up so perfectly. I'm usually telling people to stop reading because they're not reading to understand or it's a process. They're reading in more of that transaction mindset of I need to find the exact thing I'm looking for so I can put it in my literature review or I can make these notes.

Um, and it's more about writing notes or writing a section than it is about like really understanding what the literature says. And so what ends up happening is that they spent all this time reading cause they are reading, but they just have pages and pages of notes. But then they can't write because they didn't take time to process what it was they read. So they can't put it into their own words and it becomes like 80 pages of summary and no one wants to read that. Um, and so I tell people to stop and just write. Because you know this, like most of us when we, especially when you're talking about people who look like us, you've been studying or you chose your topic for a reason, nine times out of 10 is something you lived through. So you don't need a book, you don't need another like researcher or team or you don't need someone quote unquote, um, legit legitimate because that's what people say like to tell you what you already know and what you already lived through.

Dr. Lacy: So if you would just write it, then you wouldn't be able to hear your own thoughts. And second point you talked about is like journaling and brain dumping. That is how we like process, what the most part. So I tell people to do that and I think it's just another thing to add to their checklist. But really what I'm trying to help them to see is when you're reading, your brain is already processing and you don't have an outlet for you to be able to consciously see that that's what you've been doing in the background. So brain dumping and journaling allows you to make these connections and to actually write. And that is the habit of writing every day. Not only are you building a habit for your muscles and getting used to sitting down at your laptop and typing, you're also practicing what it means to synthesize information and then be able to write about it in a way that is authentic to who you are as a researcher, a scholar, et cetera.

Guest: And real quickly, I just want to name because you so eloquently put that together and how I came to a lot of this is because these were strategies I had to employ to sort of, um, live with my disability. So I have two learning disabilities and one of them is dyslexia. And I really struggle with processing without an external outlet of some sort. And so early on, my mom, shout out to Black moms, she was like you need a journal baby because nobody listening to you in these classes and you clearly got to get it out to make sense of it. Okay. And it was just in that that I was like, Oh wow. And this is so helpful. And so to, I just say that to disrupt, like sometimes we can learn, like that's helpful for all doc students, not just doc students with disabilities. I came to that knowledge, not because of my deficit but because I had to learn that because the environment wasn't made for me. Right. And so, um, I just want us to also just be thinking about like how we're thinking about ability and all of this. And that came up for me as you were talking

Dr. Lacy: Mmm Mmm. All I can say is Mmm, I don't have words. Mmm. Well to wrap this up then is there anything you think about that person who's like maybe, um, cause we're in that time of year at the time of recording this, um, that folks are working on applications to programs. Or they're in there like, I'm thinking about the person who's in their first semester of their program. I know you gave some strategies earlier, but if there's anything that you could talk to that person or those people and say, what would you say?

Community Matters (Guest):

Um, I would say first of all, if you have any minoritized identity, I just am so glad that you're here. And if you are someone who has multiple oppressed identities, I'm always someone who is in your court, you can reach out to me. I'm easily found. Um, so I say that and I mean that just because community, which is my first and foremost like advice to you is going to get you through this. Do not expect community to look like a specific type of way. You know, I get my community from virtual alum, like Marvette, um, people in the program, family members outside the program, people who don't even know what the hell a PhD is. Um, and so really just thinking about your community, who are the, who are the people that are gonna lift you up, uh, prep them for what you're about to embark on. It is like nothing else and people don't really, um, understand that. But this is a unique experience. I think it's why faculty are so scarred. And so just really, um, figure out like, as best as you can right now, what are the things you think you're going to need? And try to put those things in place so that you're not working from a crisis standpoint later.

Resting Matters (Guest):

Like just as much as you can set yourself up for success, set yourself up for success and rest, resting. It's so important. Like I'm going really just like rest and pray, but like for real rest because they'll, you will get prayers in your rest. But also it helps with that learning. So we talked about reading and writing, brain dumping, but that sleep, getting that deep sleep, um, is where, you know, we're able to then put that information into our storage systems and really, uh, like cement it. And so if we're not resting, all that, reading, all that work, all that synthesizing we're doing, it just went to waste. And so I just really hope my people are resting. I follow the Nap Ministry on Instagram and they remind me to rest in ways that feel really good and authentic for my social justice ass. But yeah, rest, stay prayed up. Keep your community up and you will get through this. And if you decide this not for you, it's okay to quit to like it's okay to quit, Don't you know what I mean? But it's okay to quit. So yeah.

Dr. Lacy: Your whole life would be changed.

Guest: If it's not for you and look value sort. We can figure it out.

Final Thoughts:

Dr. Lacy: Thank you so much. This was absolutely affirming for me and I'm sure it was affirming for those who are listening.

Guest: It was affirming for me. I was like woo thank you Marvette for inviting me.

Dr. Lacy: Thank you. I just feel like I'm just going to put this up on the site as a commercial. I'm like, you know, we haven't even [inaudible] a formal like capacity in sense of like coaching or anything and I just feel like this is everything I've been saying. So we're done.

Guest: Look, I knew when I met you, you were one of my spirit people? And my spirit is never wrong. Okay.

Dr. Lacy: Yes, we definitely have to have you back for part two. How can people find you?

Guest: So I am on Instagram because I don't like any other social media sites because I don't like social media. But I am on Instagram to appease the people that I love. It's very simple. @Ihatechickpeas. Yes, I do hate chickpeas. There's nothing personal. I don't like the way they taste. I prefer legumes. It's that simple. I'm also on LinkedIn, but I don't go on there no more cause I don't have to career counsel and Oh, email is best Niah.grimes@uga.edu. If you really need some questions, you want to do some work, I don't know. You're trying to twerk in Atlanta, whatever.

Dr. Lacy: And all of that will be linked in the notes. Um, in case you didn't catch it all. Um, but that is all. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining in for today's office hours. Make sure you come on Instagram and tag me at Marvette Lacy. Let me know what your thoughts were on today's episode. Until next time, do something to show yourself some love. I'll talk to you next week. Bye for now.