Introduction (Dr. Lacy): 

Hey friend, the time has come to finish your dissertation, graduate and become doctor. Welcome to office hours or Dr. Lacy where we talk about how to finally master this time management thing so you can stay on top of it without losing your mind. Every Wednesday you can find a new episode wherever you listen to podcasts. Make sure you hit the subscribe button to make sure you never miss an episode. I'm Dr. Marvette Lacy, your dissertation writing strategists here to be with you along every step of the way and I would like to thank you for coming to today's office hours. Let's get started on today's episode.

Hey, before we get into today's episode, I want to let you know about finish your dissertation. Do you know about it? It is my signature group designed to take you from being candidate to doctor. I'm talking about getting the structure you need in your dissertation process so that you can show up every week consistently and focused on achieving your dissertation goals. We meet on a weekly basis to really make sure that you're maximizing your time and that you know the exact activities you need to focus on to move your dissertation forward and best of all the community is the best thing out there. I mean, we're talking students who are dedicated, who are supportive, who will hold you accountable when you need it, crushing their dissertation goals. So if this sounds like anything that you would be interested in and you could use a little bit more focus and accountability in your dissertation process, then you need to come on over to Marvettelacy.com and learn more about the finish your dissertation group. Also, you can schedule your next step call while you're there so that we can have one on one time to talk and discuss you, your dissertation and your needs to make sure that finish your dissertation is going to be a good fit for you. Again, you can go over to Marvettelacy.com to learn more. Now let's get on to today's episode. 

Hey hey welcome to today’s episode. I am not going to talk long because today is another interview. And I am so excited for this interview. It’s with Dr. Kishana Taylor, who’s a really good friend of mine. And I really wanted to show some love to the STEM folks out there. I know a lot of time you hear me talking, you know my background and the guests I have are in the social sciences. But STEM people need love too. And I do have clients who work in STEM. So again, this is for you all! And who better than Dr. Kishana Taylor. I do want to make a note that we we will have a few guest appearances from her 1 year old little nugget who you know are 1 year olds, they are the life of the party and he wanted to be included on this episode as well. So we talk all things like what was it like to do a program in the STEM field? What is it like balancing a marriage and being long distance? What is it like to navigate motherhood and postdocs and moving and just trying to adjust to life. So I really do think you are going to enjoy today’s interview. And we are going to get right into it. As always, come on over to Instagram at Marvette Lacy and let me know what you thought about the episode and I look forward to talking with you. So without further ado, let’s get started. 

Tell Us About Yourself

Dr. Lacy: Thank you so much for being willing to be a part of this podcast. And we usually just open up who are you? What do you do?

Guest:  Okay, well my name is Kishana Taylor. Or I guess Dr. Kishana Taylor, since that's the whole point of this podcast. Right. I am a virologist, so I, um, research viruses. So at the current moment I researched influenza virus, um, and I'm also a postdoc at University of California Davis. Um, and I'm also a mom to a adorable 14 month old and, and, uh, wife to um, you know, someone who fathered the baby, he's not important. Baby is more important. But John Taylor.

Why Did You Apply for a PHD? (Dr. Lacy): 

Yes. Um, I hope people appreciate that cause that's real. Um, so tell us about your doctoral experience with first starting off, what, why did you even decide to apply to a PhD program?

Guest:  Yeah, so, um, I actually had no desire to get a PhD when I graduated from undergrad. I, um, I was originally gonna go to school to be a veterinarian and had gotten some internship experience at a veterinary clinic and decided that that wasn't what I was into. Um, and actually got really into epidemiology, which is the study of disease and, um, the pattern. So like outbreak patterns, that kind of stuff. Um, and so I had gone and done a masters in infectious disease epidemiology and thought that was it. I was going to go be a public health official and like research these outbreaks and be done with it. Um, and then I found out that if I wanted to do research and write my own grants, I'll have to have a PhD. And so it wasn't necessarily that I wanted the PhD, but I wanted to be able to direct my own research projects because I don't like people telling me what to do. Um, and, and because I just had, I felt like I had really good ideas that I wanted to see put forth, that I wanted to see my name and be the driving force behind those grants. So I convinced myself that I was going to go get a PhD. So I started applying at that point.

Role Models (Dr. Lacy):

Mm. And, um, did you have any examples like anyone in your close circle of family or friends to help you along the way?

Guest: No. Um, so my mom has two sisters and one brother and most of them have gotten their bachelor's degrees but no one hasn't gone above that. So I was the first person in my family to get a master's degree. Um, and also the first person in my family to get a PhD. And um, no one in my, even like in my friend circle was really doing the PhD thing. A couple of people were doing vet school cause that's what we all had started out doing. And then some people I guess maybe two or three degrees of separation, there was one girl who went on to get her PhD but no one I really knew super personally. Yeah.

Application Process (Dr. Lacy): 

And so you apply for the program. I'm assuming there was some sort of like interview type or maybe a visit type process. How was that for you when you walked into the room?

Guest:  My application process was a little bit different I think. So I had reached out to, so I'm a member of the American Society for Microbiology and they have a lot of resources for what we call in the sciences, people who aren't professors or like in professional jobs, trainees. Um, Oh, sorry, one second. It's okay bud. Um, that was my son, sorry. Um, people who, uh, for trainees, they have a lot of resources for training and outreach and mentorship. And I had reached out to, um, a mentor, uh, University of Georgia because I was interested in there infectious disease program. Um, and so at that point, um, I got an email back and the person I had emailed was like, well, we actually just started a new program. Um, the, hold on, let me backtrack. Sorry. I had decided that I was going to apply for PhD programs kind of late and so I was starting to do research for the following application year and so I emailed asking about the following application year and she said, um, well actually we are starting a new program and we're looking for applications for this year. So, um, if you want to send me all of your information, I'll forward it to the, um, to the department and we'll see, you know, if we can get you in for this year. So it was actually the only PhD program I applied to because I was also applying to jobs at the same time. Um, and so once they got all my application materials and stuff, they invited me for a visit. So I got to meet the department chair and um the program coordinator and all that stuff. Um, and we also started looking for housing because at that point it was, I guess, understood that given any unforeseen circumstances I was going to be going to school the following year. That was my application process.

The Married Life (Dr. Lacy): 

I'm laughing for those of you who are listening because you know this real life and when you have a little person that just rules the house, this is what you get. So you did that process and your applying and then you mentioned that you all started to look at houses. I want to back up because at this point you and your partner, you're married, right?

Guest: Yes, I got married, um, halfway through my master's program.

Dr. Lacy: And so as much as you're comfortable sharing, how did you navigate that process or have that discussion with your partner in terms of I'm going to go and enroll in this PhD program.

Guest: Right. Um, so I mean we have always been very open about our career goals and endeavors and so, um, I ha I was interning at the time at the FDA and um, that's when I had decided that I was going to apply for this program. And so I said to my husband, you know, I know we just got married. And I know that we have been long distance cause we were, we've been dating since my senior year of high school. He was a year ahead of me and we had been long distance because I, we had been in school Oh. Um, up until this point. And so, um, I said, I know we haven't really lived together yet, but I found out that I need to go get this PhD thing and I found this program and I got accepted. He was like, well if that's what you got to do, that's what you got to do. Um, and we had discussed him moving with me too, Georgia for the, for the degree. Um, but he had wanted to pay off the student loans first. So he was like living with his mom and his dad at this point to pay off his student loans. Um, and so we had agreed that once he had paid off his loans that he would, um, move down to Georgia with me after, at, at that point, which ultimately didn't end up happening. But that was the original discussion in the original agreement.

Relationship Wisdom (Dr. Lacy): 

Yeah. Awesome. Um, cause I know there's a lot of people who, you know, enroll in a terminal degree program and they are partnered and they are married and that's a big source of stress for them and they're in a big factor and enrolling. And so a lot of people are continuously trying to figure out how to navigate that. Um, and I'm curious if you have any, I dunno, words of wisdom for folks who are currently in their program and they're married and they're just trying to figure out how do I balance it all. Um, and you have also the unique spin on this and that it was, it was long distance too. So how do you keep your sanity while you're in the program and continue to, um, work on your relationship?

Guest: Yeah, I mean I think in general doing a PhD when you're married is hard. Um, because for anywhere from three to seven years, your priority more or less is on your degree and your dissertation and your research and all and all of those things. Um, and so if you want to get out of the degree and still be married, it requires a good healthy amount of communication. It requires a lot of honesty. Um. And it requires that you have a healthy, um, like a healthy, what's the word I'm looking for? Basically you have to know how to argue, but you have to know how to recover from it. Like you have to have a good system for that. So like if you're just consistently arguing, arguing, arguing, arguing, and there's no makeup period or there's no actual resolution, it's just arguing and then you add like a PhD on top of that, you're just going to be stressed and you're probably not going to make it. Um, and there were a couple of close calls for us where we almost didn't make it. And I would say our communication is probably better than some other couples that I've seen. But that's definitely a really important component to it as well. And then also, I mean, and this is advice to anybody who's doing a PhD, not just married folks. You have to make time for your family and you have to make time for things that matter to you. Um, and so if your husband or your wife or your spouse, I'll say, if your spouse matters to you, then you have to make time for them. So, you know, research is important. Absolutely your degree is important, but, um, you have to take the time out from your studies and from your research to spend with your spouse in order to, um, keep the relationship going. And honestly, if it's a good relationship, it will kind of breathe life back into you when you do get to spend that time with the person that you love. So.

How to Make Time for Loved Ones (Dr. Lacy):

Absolutely. And I, you know, just communicate that to my clients a lot about the importance of needing not only time for loved ones who are not inside of this world. Also yourself, um, and the response is, you know, there's this huge weight of guilt of, you know, if I take time out for friends and family or even for myself, then I'm not a committed scholar-researcher student. Um, and so I don't know if you've ever dealt with that or navigated that, but like if so how? Cause I, that's what I hear people saying. Like how do you do that? Like, yes, easy to say I should do those things or how do I do it without the guilt and the shame?

Guest: I'll tell you all a secret that never goes away. It never, ever, ever goes away. I'm, two years post degree, um, and a postdoc and I still feel that way. Um, but I do take time out to spend with my family and now that I have a son to spend with my son and I feel so much more enthusiastic and so much more fulfilled about my work than I did when I didn't take that time. And what I don't take that time and it's so easy to burn out. Um, and you might feel guilty about taking the time for yourself, but if you are burning candles on both ends, your work is not going to be good. Your work is going to show your exhaustion. And so you think that we're, you know, these hours are going to make it seem like you or make you feel like you're a better scholar, but in the end, you're not going to be proud of the work that you produce when you're completely burnt out. You're just not.

First Year Experiences (Dr. Lacy): 

Yeah, absolutely. We could end the episode right there. Um, but I know I took us down a tangent. Um, I think it's just really helpful for people because those are the questions that they want to ask, but like how do you just walk up to someone and be like, tell me all your secrets. So even if people seem like they completely got it together, they don't know. So you get into the program, right? So you go through the application process and you have all the conversations, you move to Georgia. What, what was that first year like?

Guest: The first year actually wasn't that bad. So, right. We, I got to the first year and I made, so I, full disclosure, I am an extrovert and so it's pretty easy for me to make friends. Um, when I decided to engage, um, and so I met a good number of people, um, and you know, I was going out and really learning about my program and learning about my field. And so it was, it was fine. And, um, and a lot of um STEM fields, when you go into a PhD, you do rotational programs. Um, and so for the first year you rotate in like three, between three and five labs, different labs that do research. And then at the end you pick, um, a different research topic. So at that point I was like switching labs every six to eight weeks, getting new projects, which is really exciting. I'm the type of person who likes new things. Um, and I have a harder time finishing things. And so for me, I was like, Oh, by the time I get tired of this. I'm moving onto the next project. So it was great. Um, so yeah, the first year wasn't bad. Um I would say the hardest thing was probably, um, even though my relationship with my husband, we were long distance the whole time we've been together, we were always geographically fairly close together. So it was like maybe a two hour drive, but Georgia to Jersey is like 12 plus. And so we saw each other probably are a lot less than we'd seen each other in awhile. And so that was probably the hardest part. But other than that I was chilling the first year.

Dr. Lacy: When would you say things started to pick up for you?

Guest:  Uh, probably like halfway through the second year. Um, Yes. So, uh, I'm almost done with like, so at that point I'd done a year and a half of classes. I took the lab, I'd been in a lab for, as you count, if you count the rotations for about like nine, nine months at this point. Um, I had started my dissertation research and so this is when I started to feel, you know, overwhelmed and burned out. Right. Cause you're taking classes, you're doing dissertation and research. So instead of like a rotation where you know, in eight weeks it'll be over. This is it. Like this is ultimately what you're going to be working on for the rest of your time in graduate school. Um, and this is like what you have to show for your whole time while you're there. Um all my other friends were starting to get into a research project, so we weren't seeing each other as much. Um I was I was over the long distance at this point. Yes. So, um, that, yeah, definitely about halfway through the second year.

Day-to Day Life (Dr. Lacy): 

Yeah. And how so from this period of the halfway through the second year to the time that you got to graduation, I know there no such thing as a typical week, if you could define it to give us an idea of what that life looked like on a day to day basis, how would you describe that?

Guest: Yeah, so I would say, um, I'll give you a good week and I'll give you a bad week because they're very different. So on a good week, I wake up maybe like 6:00 AM, um, go to the gym, get a workout in. Um I've come home, have breakfast, um] go to work with maybe around like 8:30, nine o'clock. Um So then, um, because again, because I'm a STEM student, so I would do research in the lab, so I'd probably be in the lab for anywhere between two and five hours. Um, depending on where, what part of the lab process I'm in, and then, you know, break for lunch. Um, and then go back into the lab. And then for the last maybe couple of hours, I'd be like writing for working on my lit review, um, or finding sources to kind of get an idea for where I want my project to go, um, from, from where I'm at. And so I would say I'd be out of the house really from about, uh, 6:30 AM till, Oh. Maybe like 5:30-6PM. Um. It's not sustainable. BTW I was tired. Um on a bad week. So probably closer to the end of me of my, um, journey in graduate school. I went into the office at like 9:30 left at lunch and then went home and was like either writing or, like veg-ed out on the couch. Yeah.

Tell Us About Your Dissertation (Dr. Lacy):

Which I feel like that's how you described my experience for the whole of time. I mean, that's true, but I feel like that describes my experience. Um, I have so many questions in my mind. I'm gonna stick to the script though. Um, can you talk to us or share with us a little bit about your dissertation project.

Guest: Okay. Um Okay. So this is going to be me putting on my science communication hat because it gets complicated. So, um, I research a virus that is spread by an insect. So in my field group we call that a arbovirus. Okay. So arthropod born virus, um, arthropods are insects. Um, okay. Um, it gets way more complicated than that. But for the sake of this podcast, arthropods are insects. And this virus in particular Um, it's spread by, um, and insects that is I guess commonly known as noseams So they're really, really tiny. Um, and when, uh, a lot of the times when you think about an arthropod, um, borne virus, we would think of like West Nile or Zika virus, that's a big one that came over. And so those are all spread by mosquitoes and in comparison that mosquitoes are huge. Um, which is, yeah, it's really, it was really interesting when I saw them like side by side, I was like, Oh my God, I would never have described, those big before I started my project. But anyway, so this virus is called epizootic hemorrhagic disease virus. Um, and so basically what it does is it causes hemorrhaging in deer. um and Then depending on whether or not they have any immunity to it, it will either die or recover from infection. Um, and so my goal for my project was to create a laboratory infection model. Um That made it so that we don't have to use seer. So historically when we study this virus we use deer, we infect deer and we look at the course of disease in deer. Um, but I don't know if you've ever seen a deer. They're huge.

Guest: Um, they're huge. They're hard to manage, um, indoors, which is where you have to conduct experiments, right? Because you have this live virus. And so, um, I was trying to find a mouse model or some other like smaller laboratory animal to do these studies with so that we can do them in bigger numbers and um Not have to deal with the cumbersome um work that comes with working with deer. Yeah.

Dr. Lacy: Huh. So now that my dramatic mind is going into overdrive cause I'm like, okay, there are things smaller than mosquitoes that had very severe, severe consequences and now.

Guest: Well they have them in Chicago. So you probably been bitten by one.

How to Complete Your Dissertation (Dr. Lacy): 

No, no, that's just not helping. Okay. Thank you. I feel like that was, that was great. Clearly you have a lot of experience explaining to people outside of the room. Um, thank you. And how would you describe that process overall of completing your dissertation project?

Guest:  Oh, um, I have very mixed feelings about my dissertation process. Um, I think like at its core, I think it was fun, right? Because um One of the reasons why people like research or people have [inaudible] that they like to answer questions. So, Um. I felt like this was a really interesting question to answer. Um. The process of and finding something that worked, it was fun. Um. Yeah. I also found it difficult, um, partially because the way that, uh, research, especially scientific biomedical research has gone in the last 10 to 20 years or so, is that usually you have to make it so that it's like super significant in order for anyone to give you funding or for people to really be like into what your project is. Um. And at this point, EHDV, which is the abbreviated, um, version of, of my virus, it's kind of agriculturally significant, but there's no human significance. And so it was hard to get a lot of people to care about it, especially because I was doing this at the same time that Zika virus came out. So everybody was all freaked out about that. And that's where all the money was going. It was kinda like, well, no one's been care about my little virus over here because you know, nothing's going to happen to them. 

So, um, that made it kinda difficult to feel, I guess, enthusiastic about it. And then on top of the fact that when you work on your dissertation project, you stopped feeling enthusiastic about it, period. But it was just like another layer of me, like not being super into it by the end. Um, and then yeah, it's a lot. I mean, lab work is lab work, so sometimes you're in the lab for an hour and you don't really have to do much and sometimes you're in there for 12 hours. So when I was infecting mice and um harvesting blood samples and stuff like that, sometimes it was in a lab for 12 hours and you're tired and you have to go and you have to for, for humane endpoint purposes, you have to go in and make sure that the mice are doing okay, which I totally am for because if we're going to use these animals, we need to make sure that they're at least as comfortable as they can be during the process. But, um, that meant I was going in to check in the morning, in the afternoon, and then once again, like late in the evenings around like eight or nine.

Guest:  So you know, that kind of hampers, the schedule a little bit. Um. And then there's the whole, um, writing I felt like in terms, so I guess coming into my graduate program, I felt like my weakest skill was writing. And I made that very clear to my PhD advisor was that I struggled with writing in particular. Um, and was hoping to get better and to get some training in that. And I just, it didn't really happen. Um, and so when we got to the point where I was only writing my dissertation, I struggled a lot. And then at that point I was kind of done with the PhD. So I went and I wrote my dissertation, um, offsite. So I went to live with my husband while I wrote my dissertation and then got pregnant two months later. So we moved across the country, so that could be closer to where I was going to start my postdoc. So it was just a lot. Yes. Good things.

Writing Wisdom (Dr. Lacy):

Um, so when I'm working with clients, the primary thing that I'm doing is um helping them to write. Um, so coaching has evolved to, I feel like that's the sweet spot of, um, cause I believe that everyone knows like you have enough knowledge in and/or enough know how to figure out the technical pieces of your data, so like content all of those things. However, like, you know, like you just mentioned with your own experience. There's not many folks like really explaining you how to write, um, particularly in academic writing. Right. Cause that's, that's not really what we learned going through like P through 16. Like that. You like pre-K all the way to the like undergrad you get some writing but it's not at the like technical academic writing that you need that is required for the dissertation process. And so I'm working a lot with clients to translate that for them, the process for them and to help them with all the other stuff that are going on. So the real life things that are happening that is influencing how you're showing up or not showing up for writing. I'm curious now that you're on this side of things, what would have helped you, you think or what was, what could have been some things that your advisors could have done to help you with writing?

I think from, at least I think so. I think part of it is knowing what you need to feel encouraged. Um. And for me, when I um, am writing I like to like I would always send it to them. Before it was really like tech, like, um, grammatically correct and all that stuff. Like, I kind of, I just want, wanted to know if like my, my ideas made sense or like if like if my, so like right, cause they say that writing is, it's basically storytelling. And so if my story is like follow the logical line and if or if it was kind of just cause it felt jumbled up in my head. Right. So I just wanted to make sure that when that when it was coming out, um, on the keyboard or on paper that it was easy to follow and that it was understood. Um, and I guess one of the ways that me and my advisors, but it has is that they couldn't see past like technical errors to get to that point. And so, um, it became kind of a, a battle of, well, I just need you to read like, I just need you to read this and tell me if this makes sense to I can't read this because there's a period missing here or whatever. Um, and so it would have been more helpful for me to, um, have had someone who was able to do that to read past the technical errors and tell me if my train of thought made sense but also, um, encouragement, right? So, Um. I already know that my, or at least in my opinion, I know, I feel like my writing is not that great and so I don't really need anyone to point that out to me, but I, I would like someone to be able to say, Oh, well, you know, this paragraph was really good. So if you continue to write like this paragraph and I think we're at like, we're on the right foot, that kind of thing. Versus this whole thing is shit and I'm not reading it.

Support for Students (Dr. Lacy):

Yeah, yeah. I tell people like you need a whole, um, team because like outside of your advisors, because there are so many faculty professor people who cannot, like you're missing a comma, they act like they can't read anything beyond that and that's not helpful to you as a student who this is supposed to be a learning process, right? Like visually, it's really like the first time that you have like designed or you're responsible for designing a project from start to finish. And it's just a lot of pieces and not a lot of time and energy to do it. So yeah, I just wish people were more flexible. But thank you. Um, two more things. The first thing being what would you want, Um, cause you know, I'm in student affairs world and so we're always thinking about how can we design environments and continue to provide information, strategies, et cetera, um, to promote learning and for students to be able to as best as possible, right, succeed in the academic environment? What would you want your, either your particular program or others like it, the administrators and the faculty to know about the experiences of being a Black woman in a STEM related, um, doctoral program?

Guest: Well, I think, um, I guess kind of popular in that, I've said this a lot in people, um, agree with me. I think in science we like to think that we don't have bias, right? Because the work that we're doing is supposed to be factual. We follow with the scientific method, et cetera. So bias has no place in science, but we're all still human. And we also have our biases. Um, and so that can definitely show up in how people, um, professors specifically, mentor their students. Um, and so I think it's important to keep that in mind. And I don't know that implicit bias trainings work, but they don't hurt. Um, but I think kind of building into your programs a um like protective measures, right? So, um, and some other programs, not in my program, but I'm in other programs I've heard of, your dissertation chair is not the person who is in charge of your research. Right? So that removes one degree of control because a lot of the times in science, you also fear, um, professors, will kind of drag along a student's dissertation because they want them to do research in the lab. So, when you have someone objectively running your chair they can say, Hey, this project was done. Why aren't you like, why aren't you defending your dissertation? I think that's a good, um, measure to put into graduate programs. Um, something that I have been introduced to in my postdoc are mentoring teams. So, right. I have my main boss who is, um, the primary investigator on a product that I'm working on, but he also made sure that I had other mentors around campus. 

Um who don't necessarily have an interest in my science per se, like my particular project, but, um, can help me develop my career goals. Um can be second eyes on writing, that kind of stuff. Um, and I think that would have been really helpful as a PhD student, uh, particularly as I was saying, because I, I wasn't getting the kind of writing feedback that I wanted. And so, um, kind of the, the biggest issue that I ran into is that every, all of the, so I had a lot of friends, um, who are also PhD students, both science and not science, but no one is going to know your topic as well as you and your advisor. Right. So I would send my stuff to them and my social science friends would be like, well, I can tell you where the sentence goes, but I don't really know what the hell you're talking about. So they couldn't really help on that level. And then, um, my friends who were also in the [inaudible] this is fine. Um. I don't see anything wrong with it. But then I'd give it to my advisor and he'd be like, this is not good. And you'd be like, okay, but where's the, like, where, where's the, I guess misunderstanding at this point? Um, and so I think having, having, if I would have had a mentoring team, as a PhD student who I could go through and be like, okay, so this, this mentor is saying this. Um, and you know, you're a colleague, you all work together, you know, so like, can you either translate this for me or, Um. If you think it's fine, can you talk to them and like see like what the issue is? Um. Yeah. But that would be, those are like my two major suggestions for PhD programs in the sciences. Just yeah just kind of intermediaries in between a student and their PI in case issues of miscommunication or bias or whatever come into play.

Advice for First Year Kishana (Dr. Lacy): 

Thank you. And then I guess the other side of that coin would be if you could go back and talk to year 1 Kishana and other folks who are in a similar position currently, what words of advice would you give to her?

Guest: I would say, Oh, there's so many things I would say. First, I would say follow your instincts. So I think that some things that came into play for me my first year in doing rotations and all of those things was um, the position I, built on the top of my list didn't have funding and so, Oh, they were like, you can apply for funding, but there's never really a guarantee that you're going to get funding. Um, and we can make stuff work, but nothing was really concrete. Um, and I understand now that nothing is ever really concrete in academia and that's not necessarily a reason to not go where you want it to go. Um, and so I probably would pulled myself to choose the number one instead of maybe the number three spot. Um, I also would tell myself, um, yeah, kind of along the same lines. I follow your gut if, if you get later into your program and things are not feeling right, you're not, it's not you. You're not crazy. You know re-examine it's okay to leave. It's okay to change your mind. Um. But if you're going to work through it, make sure that you have people behind you, which I did. So that's good. Um, yeah. Uh, let's see. I would have told myself to get a therapist earlier, like I started going to therapy end of year two, beginning of year three, maybe a little bit earlier than that. I would have told her, I would have told first year Kishana to go get a therapist right then and there even though it didn't feel like they needed one because we would've had the bases, the bases covered by the time I needed really needed to go. Um. And to take better care of myself. I think I, yeah, I gained a lot of weight while I was doing my PhD from the stress and not eating right and all that kind of stuff. So yes, take better care of yourself is probably the best thing I could say.

Final Thoughts (Dr. Lacy): 

Yes. thank you so much for giving your time, your energy and sharing your experience. I know you don't have much time these days, probably the energy, but I really appreciate it. I'm sure the folks who are listening appreciate, um, being able to hear a little bit about your experience. Um, if folks are interested in following up with you, where can they find you?

Guest: Yeah. So you can find me on Twitter where I'm yelling about diversity in STEM a lot. Um, so my handle is, um, KYT_ThatsMe, um, or if you have, I guess, more personal questions that you don't necessarily want to ask on the Twitter, which I understand, you can shoot me an email to my email is kyvTaylor@UCdavis.edu.

Dr. Lacy: 

Awesome. And all of that will be linked in the show notes so that people can just click and go to it. Well, thank you. That's going to be it for today. Thank you for joining in for today's office hours. Make sure you come on Instagram and tag me at Marvette Lacy and let me know what your thoughts were on today's episode. Until next time, do something to show yourself some love. I'll talk to you next week. Bye for now.