Episode 57: Higher Education and Student Activism with Professor Chris Linder
Introduction:
Hey friend, the time has come to finish your dissertation, graduate and become doctor. Welcome to office hours with Dr. Lacy where we talk about how to finally master this time management thing so you can stay on top of it without losing your mind. Every Wednesday you can find a new episode wherever you listen to podcasts. Make sure you hit the subscribe button to make sure you never miss an episode. I'm Dr. Marvette Lacy, your dissertation writing strategist here to be with you along every step of the way and I would like to thank you for coming to today's office hours. Let's get started on today's episode. Hey, before we get in today's episode, I want to let you know about finish your dissertation. Do you know about it? It is my signature group designed to take you from being candidate to doctor. I'm talking about getting the structure you need in your dissertation process so that you can show up every week consistently and focused on achieving your dissertation goals. We meet on a weekly basis to really make sure that you're maximizing your time and that you know the exact activities you need to focus on to move your dissertation forward and best of all the community is the best thing out there. I mean, we're talking students who are dedicated, who are supportive, who will hold you accountable when you need it, crushing their dissertation goals . So if this sounds like anything that you would be interested in and you could use a little bit more focus and accountability in your dissertation process, then you need to come on over to Marvettelacy.com and learn more about the finish your dissertation group? Also, you can schedule your next step call while you're there so that we can have one on one time to talk and discuss skill your dissertation in your needs to make sure that finish your dissertation is going to be a good fit for you. Again, you can go over to Marvettelacy.com to learn more. Now let's get on to today's episode.
Welcome Our Guest (Dr. Lacy):
Welcome back everyone to the new episode of office hours with Dr. Lacy today. I'm very excited. I get to interview the greatest of all time dissertation chairs and it's fun fact this is our second time doing this interview, because I had a Marvette moment and I deleted all of my interviews, so I think it was meant to be because it happened and I'm glad that we are here and I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself even if even though like the people who follow me, they should know who you are cause I talk about you constantly, especially for my clients. But for the few folks who don't, who do not know you, who are you? Where are you?
Meet Dr. Chris Linder:
Hi everyone. Thanks for having me on the show, Marvette. I listened to the podcast pretty regularly so it's fun to be here. I'm Chris Linder and I'm a gosh, I'm a faculty member at the University of Utah right now. Marvette and I met when I was faculty at the University of Georgia and prior to becoming faculty in the higher ed program, I actually worked in student affairs for about 10 years. The biggest amount of time I worked in student affairs, I worked as a victim advocate and the director of a women's resource center, so did lots of work related to interpersonal violence response and prevention on campus. So that's where my research interests lie. And I'm also currently serving as a special assistant to the president of the University of Utah for violence prevention and education. So it's been super fun for me to finally get to have all those pieces come together and to finally work in a place where the president is beyond supportive of the work that I'm doing and doesn't look at me like I've lost my mind whenever I make suggestions. She's really, really supportive of doing real prevention work as opposed to constantly responding to interpersonal violence. So super excited to be at the U.
Choosing to Pursue Your PhD:
In other words, she's a superstar if you did not catch that. Thank you so much for being on this show. So today we are going to talk about your journey and getting a PhD as well as your journey into faculty lands. So one of my favorite questions is to ask folks why would you, why in the world would you go get a PhD?
Guest:
Well, when I started, I actually was a person who I think like many people was doing it primarily for the credential. Um, I really wanted to be a vice president for student affairs and I worked full time while I did my PhD part-time. Thankfully, shortly after starting in a program I was introduced to doing critical qualitative research and I absolutely fell in love with it. And so then, and I'd already been teaching for quite awhile in women's studies and so because I knew I loved teaching, once I figured out I also really liked research. I thought, wait a minute, maybe I should think about faculty. And so towards the end of my PhD program I decided to do that. But that doesn't answer the question. Why get a PhD? I think, like I said, my answer is different now compared to when I started when I started it was for the credential and now that I'm on the other side of it and have worked with doctoral students for so long, I'm, I think one of the reasons to do it is to broaden and enhance your way of thinking and your way of seeking answers to problems that we face both in higher education and beyond higher education. So I think, yeah, as students, I, I serve as a director of graduate studies for our department and I get lots of questions about what jobs getting a PhD in our field, uh, prepare you for. And they probably get really tired of me, but I'm very quick to say that a PhD does not prepare you for a job in any way shape or form. Your experience prepares you for a job. A PhD prepares you to know how to ask hard questions and look for answers to those hard questions.
Experience Gets You Far:
I love that so much because it's real. People do go after terminal degrees because for the credentials for the clout, if you will. And I have found in my experience that that that helps you through the coursework. But then you get to your exams or you get to your dissertation and you, you find that you run out of motivation because you're just doing this for the credentials and you realize really quickly, like you said, to your point that it's experience that will prepare you for your next position, not necessarily because you, you know, pursue this degree. Um, and so that can be a very hard pill for folks to swallow and it makes it more difficult or it could make it more challenging for them to finish their dissertation.
Guest:
And that credentialing thing is very real, especially for those of us with minoritized identities. Like we don't really get to have a choice as to whether or not we get those credentials to keep moving up in our field. So it's sort of a both and. Like I understand that for many people it's not really like if they want to advance this is required. And also if that's your only motivation, like you just said, it won't, they won't help you get through the process or make the process really hard. So we have to be able to find the both and of that understanding that for many of us it's sort of a almost a mandate if we want to advance. And also it's not because it's training us for a job, it's because it's training us to think differently.
Dr. Lacy:
I love that. And at the same time I can see people like rolling their eyes. It's like when it's true cause people are like, you know, should I get a PhD? Should I get an EDD? And I was like what are your goals? Totally. And I get that there's like all this talk about the difference in people and that's a bunch of noise. I'm not trying to say that it's not real because we absolutely do think that way or act that way. And at the same time you have to treat it as all noise and think about what is, what is your goal after you finish, you're not interested in the questions. Don't do that part.
What's Your Way of Seeing the World?:
And I would add not only what is your goal, but what is your way of seeing the world. So it's interesting. At the U of I, there are many students in our EDD program that start in the EDD program cause they say I want to be an administrator so I should get an EDD. And then they get going and they're like, Oh my God, I love research. I want to end. The difference in the programs is, you know, in the culminating project is either a capstone, which is sort of a problem of practice and an assessment or a dissertation, which is a, you know, original research contributing to the body of knowledge. And many students in the EDD program are like, wait, I want to do, I want to do a research project, I don't want to do a problem of practice. And so that's interesting too is that people think about it as the end goal and I agree that's where we should start. But I'm struggling with how to figure out how to help students because just like me, I didn't know I was going to like research until somebody introduced me to like revolutionary ways of doing research. And so I think these students are sort of having a similar experience and some are only some students that do the PhD thinking it's a quote better, but then they have zero desire to do a research project. Like their way of thinking about the world is so applied, they should really be in the EDD program. So yes, it's about the end goal. I think it's also about how people's, how their worldview influences how they think about research and practice. I think is another piece of it. But I don't know how to help people figure that out in the beginning.
Publications For the Sake of Publications:
I don't know either. And I mean, only thing I could think of is introducing, so I think about some, my, my lens is student affairs preparation programs. So in some programs students get introduced to quote unquote research, but it's mostly quantitative postpositive style of research. And I wonder if, if it was broaden to include all forms or like allow them to have opportunities to engage more with the help. And I'm seeing like I'm having more conversations with undergrad students and master's students about Oh I need to engage in research now and get publications. I can be competitive for a doctoral program because I don't know if you had any thoughts about that.
Guest:
Yes.
Dr. Lacy:
Doing that so soon or?
Guest:
It's so hard cause it's so real. We, I we just did a search this fall and pulled away at the number of publications people that are coming out of their prep programs with. So I understand where this anxiety is coming from. And also I will say that at least for our process, we didn't count the number of publications. People had and be like, Oh we want this person cause they have the most publications. Right? Like I know people get tired of hearing this but we were looking at the whole package. We needed somebody to be able to teach and advise students doing critical quantitative dissertations. And so we were very explicitly looking for that. And some of the people we brought to campus had a lot of publications. Others didn't yet, but they had other things that we're looking for. So I like it's, so again, I get it, but it's harmful because doing publications for the sake of publications is usually shoddy research. It's just about getting something out there. And so that's not benefiting the field. I've done crappy research to get publications out and it doesn't feel good to me either to feel like I'm not very proud of that work because I didn't invest the time in it that I should have. And so we have to stop with that madness. There have to be better ways to be whole. And it's so obvious in your materials when you're heavily focused on the traditional route versus like just showing up as who you are. It's just so dramatically different and obvious. And so I think showing up as who you are is really important. And so is doing high quality, meaningful research. And that also shows up for people I think.
Critical Qualitative Research:
Yes. And that I'm thinking about doing quality, meaningful research and I feel like how do we help the people learn how to do quality meaningful research? Because even when you are, you're following the advice of your chair and your advisor and your committee who, I'm just going to be a little bit petty and messy right now for those people who believe themselves to be qualitative researchers, but they're just doing, they're saying that it's critical qualitative, but it's, it's, it's not, it's mixed methods at best. Um, and it's post-positivist. And so I just dealing with, I mean, you know, working with clients and trying to like help them unlearn some things, but also trying to carefully manage that they still have to take this back to their committee who thinks one way. And can you tell us a little bit more about your journey and coming into this role of critical qualitative research and what was helpful and like you learn in the process and how you navigate some of those things?
Guest:
Well, I was very lucky because my advisor and my committee were very progressive and actually pushed me to be more like, so an example of this is for my dissertation, I did a narrative inquiry and I really wanted 10 participants and my whole committee was like, no, that's too much. A narrative is supposed to be in depth with fewer participants. And so they really pushed hard on me to be true to my methodology and it was interesting. So I did it because I agreed with them and I understood where they were coming from. But then as I was publishing for my dissertation, I got feedback. I didn't have enough participants. So it's like this constant tension that we're sort of navigating. So I think I got lucky in that regard. The other thing I would say is as I have advised students, is that they, you have to be, have a command of why you're making the decisions that you're making and be able to ground them in the literature.
Most of the time committees can't argue with that, but you have to ground them in the literature. You can't just say, can't just go on and on and on and on about what your beliefs are without citing anything. You have to cite things and that's not because your beliefs don't matter. It's because you need to demonstrate that other people also agree with you and there's additional evidence to support these claims, and so I think people just have to get comfortable with this idea of you're figuring out ways to support your arguments. I have a student right now, she's been on here, Niah, who she comes up with the most of what I would consider sort of radical approaches to doing, like both collecting data and analyzing data and then even writing it up. She wrote up her publishable paper as a screenplay, which was absolutely beautiful. But she justifies this stuff better than anybody I've ever seen. And it might be frustrating to feel like you always have to be justifying it, but another framework for that is that you're giving people permission that come after you to do it and you're giving them the tools that you're sort of laying the groundwork for them to be able to do things a little different differently. And then also then that doesn't become so radical. It just becomes the way that we do things, which I am really excited for. I'm really glad to see that there's more and more work that just is, it's not radical. It's not innovative, it's not creative, it's just qualitative research. Um, and that's what I want is to, for us to just do qualitative research and not call it radical or innovative or creative.
Dr. Lacy:
That's the dream, right? It's something to the point to of yes, you have to like ground it in the literature. And I think a lot of times when folks hear other people say that they think like my exact idea, I need to find it. And that's not always the case. Sometimes you are building like overall, here's what I think, here's my philosophy and I need probably need to pull from different sources to support this philosophy. But you may not and most times will not find your philosophy. Exactly. Because at the end of the day it's yours. So you can build an argument from it, from literature, but doesn't mean it will be exactly in the way that you're saying.
Give Credit Where it's Due (Guest):
Yeah. And I mean yes and it's pulling from other places and it's also honoring the people who came before you. Right. So especially again, especially for women of color specifically, it is really, really, really important that that work gets cited and people get credit where it's due. And like, I think it's important for people to keep going back and finding who originally said something. Laurie Patton and Jessica Harris have this amazing article about the misuse of intersectionality theory in student affairs research. Um, and they talk about how, I can't remember how many articles that they did. Uh, they, they looked and many people don't even cite Kimberly Crenshaw or Patricia Hill Collins, who would be the first people, well, some people would argue it went back before even before them, but they are the women of color who talked about intersectional intersectionality and intersectional theory first. And so when we don't honor that and respect that, we misuse it. And also we don't give credit where it's due and it gets misappropriated by primarily white women are the ones that misuse it and misconstrue it. So there's nothing wrong with like building on previous theory. Like it would be really bad if we'd never, if we just use intersectionality as it originally was, like it's important to build on it and help it keep evolving. And it's also important to make sure that we're naming where it came from originally because there's a long, long, long, long history of white people stealing people of color, ideas. So we should stop doing that.
Dr. Lacy:
Yes. Yeah. That's just like that on a loop we think about, so I'm thinking about like your dissertation experience is your topic and even your research agenda today. These are not, these are not like nice cute conversations you bring up at the dinner party like, Hey do you want to talk about institutional betrayal and Campus sexual violence? Oh, you don't, okay. Or I like, Hey nice white women. You want to talk about your identity? I don't, I just, I don't know exactly what my question is. I'm just curious like how was that experience for you? Did you have any pushback from committee, any other pushback as a student and now how do you navigate research?
Push Back & Push Forward (Guest):
I mean, It's interesting, I didn't get push back on the nice white ladies in my dissertation again cause I had a strong committee also because I believe I grounded it well and made strong arguments. Like I was really clear I was not letting white women off the hook for our crappy behavior. And also that there's something to be explored there. Like, I don't want to recenter white women in the conversation about feminism. And yet we have to like white people have to dig into and understand our racial identity before, before we're going to make progress on ending racism. And so that for me it was like my own struggle. I've, I have gotten push back, and so what's interesting is that there's like a lot of social justice policing. There are certain people who believe they're, they're in charge of getting decide who gets to do what research. And so I have navigated that. What's interesting though is I get different feedback from different people. Like some people of color will tell me you have, so I've done research on the experiences of students of color in student affairs and higher education graduate programs and I've had some faculty of color that you have no business doing, that white lady, that's not your job. Like leave that to other people. And I've had other people of color tell me please do that because people will listen to you differently than they listen to me. And so like negotiating all of those politics is interesting. I always, always, always have practitioners on my research teams because I think that I'm too far removed at this point. Yes, I was a practitioner for a long time, but I'm too far removed. And so I think it's really important to have people that are currently engaging in the work on research teams.
So I think that helps. I think doing cross identity work is also important. The research teams that I've had the most fun with and who I feel like I've produced the best studies are really messy research teams with very diverse perspectives. And I mean diverse in terms of identity for sure. So people from different races and different sexual orientations and gender identities for sure. And also just lots of perspectives in different, like working in different parts of higher ed. So I think those pieces matter. The stuff around sexual assault though. So this is what's interesting is that I feel we cannot, we are hurting ourselves and in the research around sexual assault. So it is so overwhelmingly, so Marvette and um, so we had a big research team of five people for this projects that we did. And Marvette was on this team, but we did a content analysis of 10 years of research on sexual assault on college campuses. And it of course is overwhelmingly quantitative, overwhelmingly post positive. I mean it's just bad. And like I cannot tell you, I, I say over and over and over and over and over again. We have to focus on prevention, true prevention. But then people are always going to, well, what, how do we teach people how not to get raped? How do we, like it's always about the victim and it's always about the aftermath. And so we just cannot figure out ways to interrupt power in this area. And so that for me is where I get frustrated. It's, it's certainly in research, but it's more so in practice is that people just don't know what to do with me. Like I show up in this space and I'm like, can we please talk about perpetrators? And they're like, what? Why would we do that? And I like, I just had this really intense conversation with someone who's a victim advocate and she's like, I just don't understand how you can have any compassion for perpetrators.
And I'm like, it's not about compassion for perpetrators. It's because victims are telling me, I don't want him to get in trouble. I just want him to stop doing this. And so my job is to listen to victims who say, I want him to stop doing this and figure out a way to make him stop doing this. Like it can't, you can't get more victim centered than listen to survivors tell you what they want and then going and doing it. And yes, 10% of survivors do go to the police and they do want to move forward with some sort of prosecution or some sort of criminal justice process. But 90% of of victims don't go forward because they don't want to deal with that system. So like who's listening to those 90% as opposed to the 10% who are going forward. And so I know that's not directly about research, but it's tied to research because when we like try and approach, how do we talk with perpetrators? How would you interventions with perpetrators that are not criminally focused? People don't know what to do with that. And certainly researchers don't let you know when you submit stuff to journals, they don't know what to do with it either. Cause it's not what we're used to seeing in this area.
Dr. Lacy:
I think it blows my mind that so many people can't even fathom the thought that someone would be considered a perpetrator and they didn't intend to be. Yes. Because they're like, what do you mean? I'm like people, it's about education. It's about awareness. Like we don't, we don't talk about sex in school. Like you can barely get someone to talk about like infectious diseases and viruses in school, but the act of sex, who is talking to the kids beyond porn hub about what it looks like to engage in sexual activity. So yes. So like even try to start there and people are like, I don't, I don't know what you mean. I'm like, exactly. You did this work, what do you mean, don't you talk to them? So I think that's what I think is really interesting to talk to case managers. And um, I know we're going off on a tangent, but I think it's interesting to talk with them and folks who are in the student conduct area cause they have to talk to everyone. They have to tell everyone their rights and responsibilities and walk them through the process so they get to see both sides. So yeah, that it, it, it just, it blows my mind. Something I'm thinking about related to doing this type of research is that it partic, like even as a student, junior faculty, like you're designing a research project and you're doing cells so that you can, you know, complete your last requirement for your program. Or maybe it's, you're going up for your third year review and promotion and things of that nature. So you're trying to contend with that piece. And then when you are also saying, I'm going to do research around areas that are, could be really personal, can be not complicated in a sense. Like, um, I'm mean complicated in that its people's like lives as their lived experiences as something they probably haven't spoken to anyone about. And then you have to like, you have to navigate their emotions, your emotions and that this big part of your career is like hanging in the balance to make it sound so dramatic. I know it feels dramatic. What do you do with that? Like how, what is, how do you care for yourself? How do you, you know, work through all of that? Because even the collecting of the data and analyzing it, talking with people, it just, it can be a lot. So it's just something I've been talking with clients a lot about and I'm just curious your thoughts.
"We Need To Slow Down" (Guest):
I mean I think in many ways we need to slow down. And I know when we're in like both of those examples you shared like finishing your degree and being on a tenure track, we don't always have the luxury of going at our own pace because we're held to somebody else's clock. But I wonder if there are ways to either plan ahead, intentionally say I'm going to do this slow, so I want you all to know I'm doing this slow, but we're just, I think it contributes to both the crappy research trying to do things too fast contributes to crappy research, but it also contributes to what you're talking about where people aren't able to slow down and take care of themselves during the process. I have a student right now who's writing her capstones. It's not, she's not collecting data, but she's writing her capstone about college students in mixed status families related to US citizenship. So you know, oftentimes the students will be documented but their parents are undocumented. Some of their siblings are undocumented. Just like the stresses of that. And then at the same time there have been significant experiences with parents of students in our community being detained by ICE. And so like those two things happening at the same time, it suddenly, it's not, it's not a capstone paper, it's like happening right there. And so like how do we negotiate that? Part of it is negotiating as a community. So making sure we're taking care of each other, being sure to ask for what you need, but then the challenge becomes when you have those jackass faculty members who just won't budge and say, no, you're on this time, we have to do X, Y, and Z.
"Journal About It!" (Guest):
Finding other people to be your support networks or finding other faculty who will say, no, you can slow down, we will work with you and you can graduate in August instead of May. Like just figuring out different ways to slow down the pace. I think is important. I'm a huge advocate of counseling. If you can find a good counselor, there are good counselors out there. There are also crappy counselors out there, so you have to be okay with saying, this isn't working for me, and finding someone else. Journaling about it and then writing a whole damn paper using your journal like there that that's a part of the literature I think is also missing. We talk about the pain of doing research a lot, but there's actually not a lot published on it and I think it could be really helpful to share those experiences with people. Maybe even recording conversations with other people who are studying the same thing as you to sort of process through and then like I said, write about that. Use use stupid processes we have in place to your advantage so you can get an article out of processing how painful it is to engage in this work. Go for it, do it because it will both help, it'll help other people and it may help you in the process of self care, I think.
Dr. Lacy:
Yes, I love it. Yes, there are good counselors out there. Now it may not always feel good because they they snatch your edges, but its alright, you need it sometimes. And I of course, you know I'm a big fan of journaling because I tell people, I'm like, well, you wrote that in your chapter three that you're going to have a researcher's journal. What's in it? It's so true. People like well I put in that I did an interview. I'm like, you know, we could talk. Let's talk more about that. And I am really, I also get taken, I got taken aback every time I look at my stats from my website. I wrote in 2017 I wrote this blog post about reflexivity and positionality and the importance of constantly engaging in this, the number one like site. And I'm just like, I don't know why it blows my mind, but it's right because people are not taught or not encouraged to fully engage in that process. Cause I think it goes back to our earlier point for the people who think they're qualitative researchers.
It's so true. And it just here just quickly talking about journal. I actually ended up using a in what and during my dissertation process for sure. And then since then it has happened some too, but I used a ton of my researcher journal in my implication section of chapter five. So I'm really grateful that I did all of that journaling because I ended up actually using it in my writing, which was lovely. Yeah, I feel like most people would.
Dr. Lacy:
To go to your point, whether it's a piece about the actual process of doing it or even just helping to make connections because we're not encouraged in general as a society to really think about what we think about what it's like to make meaning from those thoughts. And especially when you're engaged in research, you're making so many connections, you have no idea that you're making, you have no way to capture it. That just gets lost because you think you'll remember it. But no, your brain is not. It's not what your brain is meant to do. Total processor. Yeah. Okay.
Advising Philosophy:
Well I'm also thinking about you as a, and as an advisor, as a chair, I've learned so much watching you be a chair and like watching over a span of time too. I'm curious about your philosophy as it comes from there. How can you help people and their relationships with their chairs? I mean, I know you can't control all of that, but just words of wisdom. Um, and particularly, I'm curious, have you gotten any push back or feedback as you went out on interviews or talking with colleagues and different folks around the, um, field about your, your students? They do some interesting research. One who spent, she spent a long time in Ghana you have one is doing sex work. This one over here who's just like cursing up a storm in her dissertation. And Niah's doing screenplays. I just, I'm curious if you,
Guest:
Yeah, that's a good, I actually haven't, but I feel so freaking lucky. Like I have, I do have the greatest advisees on the planet and I, as I talked about last time we did this, but I had a not good experience at UGA. I w it was a really hard, hard environment for me professionally. But the thing that I gained from there that was life changing is my relationship with the students in that program. I think that I attracted advisees with sort of what others would consider radical ways of thinking or radical ways of doing things because I support them in figuring out how to do that. So you will look at my advisees dissertations and they are well-grounded, right? Like they're, nobody's out there doing stuff that they don't have support for. But like you said earlier, it's not direct support. It's not like somebody like, you know, replicating a study, but they're drawing on things all around them to build an argument for why they want us to study college students engaged in sex work and how they want to do that. And I learned so much from TJ about different ways to do narrative inquiry and like, how to pull things together. So no, I don't get, I don't get a ton of feedback or like questions from people. That would be interesting though.
Write, So You Can Get Feedback (Guest):
I'm wondering what, what people think because I have been really lucky to have just such cool studies. But in terms of your other question about like just ways that people can manage committees and chairs and all of that stuff. So one thing is that the people say all the time, but I can't even, it's so true, the commun, you have to communicate. Like as an advisor, I take my responsibility seriously to provide feedback to students when they get me something. But if they don't get me anything, I can't get them feedback. Like you have to have words on a page. People will meet and meet and meet and meet and not write anything. Like I have gotten to the point where I will not meet with students unless they give me two pages of writing prior to the meeting. Like I can't help you. I can't tell you how to write because I don't, everybody does it differently. And so I don't know what it is you need support with until you give me something so I can see where you are in your process. So, and I understand that's vulnerable, especially if you don't have a great relationship with your advisor. But I just can't emphasize enough that we can't know what you need until you share something with us.
"Be Open About Your Struggles":
I think also figuring out ways to let go of need for perfection is really important. And just getting, like I said, words on a page, being open about what your struggles are. So the thing I think I've learned the most about being an advisor is, so I am, I have a ton of privilege in my ability status. I've never struggled with mental health. I've never struggled with any sort of physical, chronic illness, anything like that. And many of my students have dealt with and are dealing with chronic illness and anxiety and depression and learning disabilities. And I mean just like there's always something going on for folks. And so I had to learn relatively quickly like how to support students who are struggling with different pieces. And for me it basically came down to listening to what they need and figuring out ways to make that happen. So for example, I had one student who I could not understand, this was early on in my career, I could not understand why she couldn't just get words on page. I was like, what the hell is going on? Like just send me something. And then I learned that she was dealing with anxiety and it was so anxiety provoking for her to even put words on a page. I changed my style with her to be less focused on like give me something and more focused on so much support. Like you've got this, you've done this before, this is where I've seen you excel. So that it was constantly reminding her that she's already done pieces of this so that she could remember, she could do it and she finished and she did a great job. So, and I know that probably resonates with a lot of people and just have some compassion for your advisor. I've been being more open with students about this lately. So even as a teacher, I mean you all, most people that I work with are educators in some form or another, but so you know, the level of disclosure that people share with you and the level of stuff that people are dealing with in their lives.
And so you think about your advisor may have 15 advisees that all have stuff going on in their lives and your advisor is trying to do their best to support all of those students while also getting them through the process because everybody wants to finish. But I think just keeping that in mind as well. And just a quick example of that is that two weeks ago, maybe three now, I received two emails within 15 minutes of each other. One student emailed me to let me know that she wasn't going to be in class because her nephew died by suicide. The night before, 15 minutes later I got another email from a student whose dad had been detained by immigration. And then five minutes later I got an email from a student who was arguing with me about points on his assignment. So of course the points were important to that student and he had no idea I'd received these other two emails. But for me it was really difficult to be patient with him because I was sitting on these other two emails from students who are dealing with what for me feel like significant life crises. And so I think just remembering that your advisor is also managing a lot of students. I'm trying to figure out the best ways to support lots of people. And so while your crisis might feel like a crisis to you, it may not feel like a crisis to them because they're dealing with so many students who have stuff going on in their lives. Does that make sense?
Dr. Lacy:
Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And I remind my clients also, and even to everyone on here, your advisor is also a human who also has their own stuff that they're dealing with outside of advisees and work. Right? We're not all work. And just because you know, they have letters behind their name and they're helping you, your process doesn't mean that they're no longer human. They figured it out. They got the secrets of life. They don't have to deal with anything. So yeah, that's the part I'm like, they're human, like all the things you're dealing with. Do you not think they deal with it? And people are like, Oh, I didn't think about that. I'm like, yes. So I'm like, whatever you can do to make their lives easy or to help you would help you so much more. And just the whole piece about showing up with something, that's the thought. Yes. The thought that students will say like, well if I get feedback and there's marks and that means I'm just, I'm bad, I it should come back perfect. And I'm like, Oh no, that's not what you signed up for.
Feedback Makes You Stronger (Guest):
I would never, I would feel so guilty if I didn't have feedback for a student, cause I feel like my job is make everything of theirs stronger cause all of our work can always be stronger. And so yes, it's probably fine as is, but you're paying me, somebody's paying me to make your work stronger. So just let me do it. It also doesn't mean you have to agree with everything that people give you for feedback. You can disagree. You can make arguments. Why that doesn't work. Just share why it doesn't work. It's just a suggestion. It's not for most of us, it's not an absolute. Sometimes I have absolutes. Like there are times when I'm going to tell you I do not want to see a limitation section in this paper. That's a post positive as concept. Do not put it in a qualitative research paper. There are most things are suggestions.
Dr. Lacy:
Yeah, but people do not, They don't receive it as such. And I've been really trying to figure out a way to help people with the receiving feedback piece cause I'm like not in like actually people are probably kind to you in this process because when you get past this point people, they take off the gloves and it's just
Guest:
Because their name's not attached anymore. Yeah, totally.
Dr. Lacy:
Yeah. So I don't know, I just been working on that a lot. As we wrap up, there's so much I could talk to you about but I will say that you also have been a great teacher for me in terms of letting everything work in harmony and really being intentional about how to have the, the energy or the capacity to show up to do all these things. So watching you over the years be very intentional about how you eat, how you move your body and getting rest and even like how you show up and dress and aesthetics and things of that nature. I've been doing this whole thing about being a high performer versus being a hustler really put you like in a high performer cause it's a, it's a holistic thing. Um, I think people think about these things separately. Like, Oh, it's just another thing on my to do list. But what I really learned from you is no, it's, I need to do these things so that I can perform at the level that I want to perform that. And not to say like it's perfect and you like got it all down. But in terms of consistency and intentionality of it, say I've learned a lot and also watching you produce at this high level and seeing like all the things that it takes to be able to do so. And even your last summer summer of Chris as I was like rooting from the sidelines of Instagram and I will be doing it again this summer. I'm just here, I have a sign. Any, any words of wisdom, um, and to, for other people and helping them to in terms of their mindset and their approach to, yeah.
"Let Go Of Perfection" (Guest):
Thanks for saying all of that. It's very kind of you. I appreciate it. So for me like then this is so tied to my whiteness and I'm going to say it anyway cause I also am a woman and deal with you know, sexism and oppression in that way. So one of the things that's the most helpful is letting go of perfection. Um, and just realizing that there is no such thing as perfect research. There is no such thing as a perfect article. And so I believe part of the way I've been able to be academically productive is letting go of my need for perfection. And just recognizing that I send articles off because I know I'm always going to get feedback. And then like, evidently by the time a piece is actually in print, I already think differently about it. So it's like everything is always out of date. It's never exactly how I want it to be. But it's out there and it's contributing to the conversation. It's making people think like the highest compliment to me is for somebody to take work that I've done and say this was a great start Chris, but here's how it could be better. And they build on it. Like I want my work to contribute to people's way of thinking about things and then they go out and do it better or make it better. That is to me the highest compliment. And so if you, I think one thing is letting go of our need for it to be perfect and right. Um, and just letting it be a contribution. Part of that is letting go of our egos and recognizing that none of us are like sometimes I think we're, we think we're more important than we actually are.
I'm noticing this with the Corona virus. People are freaking out about online classes and doing remote sexual assault awareness month events and like people, there are major issues happening in the world. Let's let go of sexual assault awareness month for a year and focus on getting people well, focusing on supporting our health care worker, right? Like we are not as important as we think we are. Um, and we have to let go of that. And then I did the other thing is exactly what you said. Figuring out what it is that makes us well and doing those things. Cooking and eating is really important to me. Exercise is really important to me and it's not because like once I got over it being about how I looked and more about how I felt, it also shifted for me. I think as women we're told we have to look a certain way and so once I was able to as a 40 something person move away from that and really focus on how I feel as opposed to how I looked. But even letting go of perfectionism related to that too, like there are many weeks where my eating goes down the toilet. Like it is just not healthy. But that's life sometimes. And so I let it go and I start over the next week.
I really appreciate you sharing all of that cause it is about ebbs and flows. Like it's not meant to be this consistent thing and life is the same the whole time. It's just your overall intention and energy you bring to it. So I also appreciate that piece of just put the, get the, get the manuscript out there because no, it won't be perfect. Yeah, you will think about it differently even when it's printed a year later. I think completely different now, but yet here we are in order for you to be able to think about it differently, you had to write that first piece and submit it to get to that point. So thank you so much. Thank you. I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. I know folks got a lot out of it. I'll have to bring you back to talk about all the things. Well, where can people find you?
Follow Our Guest:
Yeah, certainly the like articles out there. I'm most of the work that's published I'm actually really proud of. There are pieces that I'm like, ah, don't, don't email me about that. But if you do, I'll, I'll answer anyway. But so I think that I value that work and I think it's important that people are reading it. Even outside of scholarship. I also have a blog called dear nice white ladies. I don't write in it as often as I would like, but whenever I get, you know, in the right mood, I will often put things there. So dear nice white ladies blog. And then Twitter of course is another place. So yes. And that's @ProfLinder.
Dr. Lacy:
Yes. And if you, you know, you also want to get your running game on, you want to train for an endurance race, you should also follow. What's your Instagram account?
Guest:
It's the joyful trail runner.
Dr. Lacy:
Yes. Go follow.
Guest:
Yeah, I'm training for another a hundred mile run in September. So right now my Instagram account is the, I was going to do daily training updates, but I haven't, I'm having an injury, which I'm really bummed about. So now it's a little less frequent, but I will, this injury is temporary. I just need to rest my foot and then I'll get back on it. But yes, that's another place to see stuff outside of academia.
Dr. Lacy:
Yes. Join me in rooting her on. Cause you know, she casually just said a hundred miles. Thank you so much. Um, and all of that will be linked in the show notes, but thank you so much for taking the time. Of course. Thank you. Thank you for joining in for today's office hours. Make sure you come on Instagram and tag me at Marvette Lacy, let me know what your thoughts were on today's episode. Until next time, do something to show yourself some love. I'll talk to you next week. Bye for now.